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Hybrid Vehicles Hybrid Vehicles - Archived Discussions Toyota Prius vs. Honda Civic Hybrid v. Honda Insight v. ? 
336 messages, Last post on Oct 26, 2007 at 11:07 AM
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you are right on there: if you are an all hwy driver, the Prius provides little benefit over a corolla or regular civic in mpg. Since I drive more hwy than city, this has been one of the main causes of my hesitation to adopt the new tech. In particular, the civic HX has been around for a decade now, with a lean-burn VTEC, and friends that have had them regularly get more than 40 mpg. I know from driving an '01 Prius on a regular basis (part of the fleet at the county where I work) that all I could expect in daily use is 42 or so. So, no advantage mpg-wise. I do expect the '04 to improve that figure by 6 mpg or so. Problem is, there is not yet a PZEV-rated corolla or civic, is there? So emissions-wise, you still have to make a choice: go for the higher mpg with worse smog-forming emissions (corolla, civic), go for the lower mpg but PZEV rating (in such cars as Nissan Sentra or Ford Focus, both low-30s mpg), or go Prius and get both for about $3-4K more. In the end, this will have to go beyond a dollars and cents decision for anyone willing to buy Prius. In particular, one would need to have a personal commitment to change one's lifestyle a little and pay a little extra to advance a technology that holds promise to protect the environment now and in the future. However, unlike many postings here at Edmunds in the past, I do not believe that with the '04 Prius you have to sacrifice anything else except for the $$ premium to purchase. |
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Hi John1701a: > That's rather misleading information. Instead, you should list the STICKER PRICE ___Why should I quote sticker price when 99% of all Prius owners are paying sticker price, sticker price +, or sticker price + an option package they may or may not want? I can receive any of the 4 models above for exactly what I quoted? You need to spend some more time in the Prius Buying experience forums before you tell me about what can be purchased for what price today. > 125 Feet is the correct value. ___John, here is something for you to ponder … One, look up Motor Week’s test of the 03 Camry, 03 Corolla, and 04 Prius to see their panic stop distance numbers. Same magazine, same test procedures, and the distances listed above. They tested an 02 Camry XLE, an 03 Corolla w/ Manual, and the 04 Prius. Next ponder why would a car that weighs 2524#’s using GoodYear Integrity’s panic stop in 128 feet and an automobile using the EXACT same tires but weigh 2890 #’s stop in 128 feet? They both have very similar suspensions, similar brake HW, and probably similar weight distribution. In either case, you can tell me I am incorrect but you will have to take it up with Motor Week as they are the ones that recorded the 142 feet in the 60 to 0 panic stops of the 04 Prius vs. the 03 Corolla’s (manual) 128 and the Camry’s 118 (XLE trim however). In the case of the Camry, the XLE has better brake HW so it would be expected to stop in a shorter distance but I didn’t post the SE/XLE braking numbers of 118 feet because they do not use the same HW as the Base LE. > Since the "CVT" in Prius is totally, completely different than the one in Civic-Hybrid, it is inappropriate to label both of them the same way. ___Because the Honda Civic Hybrid has a CVT and you labeled it as such in the 04 Prius std. features list above. Honda, Motor Trend, Car and Driver, and Consumer Reports called the Honda Civic Hybrid w/ CVT a CVT so why shouldn’t anyone else? ___Nippononly, there is a PZEV rated Accord although I do not know if you can purchase one in your locale yet? The Corolla, no way unfortunately. I hope Toyota begins to see the light with their other vehicle lines since Ford is offering the Focus and Nissan a Sentra in PZEV trim as you have posted. It won’t be long before that many more automobiles will be rated PZEV or better. I will not debate the change in lifestyle vs. costs but I also see the change not being made by most drivers on the road today. If you want to reduce HC, NOx, CO, and CO2 emissions, slow down, coast when possible, and maximize a cars mileage capability most of the time instead of none of it. Unfortunately, that is a tall order and of all the cars that pass me every day, I have only seen 2 in the last 3 months that were abiding by this. A Honda Insight and of all things, a Lincoln Navigator drafting an 18 wheeler. I can explain more of this in a later post… ___Good Luck ___Wayne R. Gerdes |
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I'd like to point out that all the comments hear ignore HSD in general, they focus solely on limited data currently available on only vehicles currently available. The fact that the hybrid system now in Prius being installed in other vehicles has not been acknowledged. What about a Corolla with HSD? In the short-term, higher prices are a very normal part of new technology rollout. When it becomes more common, prices drop. That seems to be overlooked a lot. So discussions here are limited to those making the purchase decision now, not later. JOHN |
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<john1701a> Since the "CVT" in Prius is totally, completely different than the one in Civic-Hybrid, it is inappropriate to label both of them the same way. In fact, they have as little in common as a manual & automatic transmission do. </john1701a> I personally got used to use the term "CVT" only in regards to classic van Doorne scheme. But recently other types of CVT emerged, like toroidal type (for example, Nissan Extroid). Should not we just embrace the "CVT" as a term more generic, than "van Doorne cone-and-belt setup"? On the other hand, in all "normal" cars the transmission comes after the engine and after some type of clutch (plate-type or hydraulic converter, whatever). Which means, that you can change the type of clutch or the type of transmission (manual, automatic, van Doorne, toroidal, etc) without changing the way a car behaves. But in the case of Prius you cannot just pull out its planetary gearset and stick something else like classic manual gearbox -- it simply will not work. So, in case of Prius planetary gearset is not a transmission in traditional sense. It is part of something bigger. Vice versa, to put Prius' transmission on other car one would have to use two motor-generators as well, and a battery to feed them. So, it is not just a transmission, it is a whole complex of hybrid setup, when the equation has only one solution. Whatever, normal people do not care about this stuff. Just tell them the car has CVT 
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Well, does someone have any information, aside of pure theoretical verdicts made solely by looking on the Prius electric and mechanical scheme, how the car would behave if battery, or mg1 or mg2 would fail? I can tell right now that Civic Hybrid would still be able to start and drive like normal car if its motor-generator or battery failed. But I am not sure at all about Prius' reliability in that sense. If mg1 went out, who would rotate sun gear to start the engine? If mg2 went out, how the car would start moving at all (well, it still can be moved by a gas engine, but with about 1700 rpm it would be hard). Do not forget that mg1 also should be rotated to keep engine rpms in proper range, and mg2 adds about 30% of torque and also charges the battery. Prius does not seem to have any reserving of the main propulsion system and all devices must be 100% functioning for Prius to move. John, I've read your logs on your web site, and 3 years in Minnesota is exciting experience. But the simple fact is, that you have not had any failures! What would happed, if one small piece of this machinery fails? The car will stop, I guess. Up to this time the only piece of car hardware which was done by space industry reliability standards was an airbag. Now a whole car becomes a space Shuttle. Hope that the Japanese attached the heat-protection tiles better. |
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Hi John1701a: ___If only Toyota would have installed the HSD in a Camry/Corolla last year … They have had ~ 4 to 7 years to do so, right? Since Toyota didn’t, we can discuss what can be purchased today since unfortunately that is all that is available “today”. ___Here is a neat thought. What if the Camry was available with a HSD and cost ~ the same as the 04 Prius? You know, in XLE trim with better stopping power, better ride, larger size, more luxurious features, and lower cost? Would you have purchased the Camry instead? I would have if it received better hwy mileage then what I am receiving with my Corolla, guaranteed. Probably only an LE trim however. Then again, what if Toyota placed an HSD into the Corolla w/ a hatchback and was AT LEAST $3,000 less expensive then the 04 Prius? Same conclusion … Toyota didn’t so what’s the point in discussing it? ___Not that I am in any way right but I see a money grab of sorts by Toyota with the 04 Prius. Not that this is a bad thing given that is the way Capitalism works and helps defray the HSD’s development cost but the Prius uses mostly off the shelf, low end brake and suspension HW yet costs a large premium over and above that of the economy or other cars it is competing with? You and I have had the same back and forth in the past … Instead of a completely new platform, why didn’t they simply place the HSD in the recently redesigned Corolla? It would have saved the development costs of the Prius line (not the HSD of course) and it would have been made available to hundreds of thousands instead of 36 to 40,000 as is the case with the 04 Prius today. Since Toyota sold every 01-03 Prius they made, could they not have done the same with every 03/04 Corolla w/ an HSD? Does the HSD actually cost that much more then a std. ICE? If it does, it may never make economic sense for a hwy driver in particular. Old news I know but I still don’t see the payoffs. All the discussion of HSD HW prices coming down is beginning to sound like bunk given the Prius’ in some form or another has been out for almost 7 years. The battery packs are still outrageously expensive for the 01-03 and the 04. Toyota even has its own marketing reps spouting the company line on this future cost savings and all one has to do is go to the service counter of their local Toyota dealer and ask what it costs to replace the packs in an 01-03 or the 04. There is no savings but there most certainly is a smoke screen. I am concerned that we will never see the promised savings that many including Toyota have promised. I can only hope Toyota will make all their automobiles ULEV/ULEV-II or even better, PZEV given the additional $150 to $300 per vehicle but they haven’t done that or appear to be heading that way in the very near future from what I have read. We have known about the terms ULEV, ULEV-II, SULEV, PZEV, and ZEV for over 3 + years now and the only thing Toyota has offered anyone here in the sates with this capability is the Prius. Again, I am certainly glad Toyota is pushing the Fuel Economy/Emission envelope and offering a technology that can save the world of some of its short term ills but are they doing it in such a fashion to line their pockets or to improve the world as a whole? I guess I am glad they are at least offering something to some given the 0 offered by anyone else at this point in time. Well maybe Honda with the Insight 5 Speed maybe but only if purchased used does it make any financial sense either. It is a good thing American’s and probably everyone else thinks as a group with their passion rather then with their pocket books … ___On a more political note, I believe it is Japan that imports ~ 50% of their oil from the Middle East, Europe ~ 40%, and here in US, ~ 12%. I am speaking of Middle East supplies only. No matter the implications, the Middle East is a strategic area to be guarded because it doesn’t matter where you get the oil from, it only matters that the total supply meets demand. With a small drop in supply from anywhere, the price goes up and economies of the world suffer the consequences. The US is the only country looking over the Middle East for this reason (some other ugly other reasons as well that are far less economic but I won’t get into those) and with that, we as a nation will suffer the consequences of this guarding action for a very long time … or at least until the problem is dealt with abruptly. With that, I still don’t see people I know; work with, or read about purchasing economical engines when given the choice in a particular model of automobile. Give me that fire breathing V8 or 6 instead of the 4 even though they will all perform their duties just as well to most consumers. CAFE is a government forced ruling but you cannot stop Joe Q. Public from doing what he does best … Think of the new Dodge commercial on the TV with the father teaching his 2 year old to say the word “HEMI”. Now there is a sound footing to base our future on, don’t you think? ___Sorry for the semi-OT BS I just spewed … ___Good Luck ___Wayne R. Gerdes |
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> Just tell them the car has CVT. Yup! That's great for general publicity. However, for this particular topic thread where every factor of every component will end up being discussed, we need to be a bit more specific. Otherwise, you could actually group both automatic & manual into a single category called "with gears". JOHN |
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Hi John1701a: ___As for the CVT, the Honda Civic Hybrid does use a “Continuously Variable” transmission with an almost infinite number of gear ratios irregardless if it uses the Belt and Cone setup or the Prius’ planetary gear set. The same cannot be said of an Automatic or Manual and for most; an automatic really doesn’t make much of a difference, does it? A manual on the other hand is a SOB in stop and go traffic in particular as anyone that owns one can attest … ___On an Insight or HCH, the manual is more economical as it is on everything else. In the case of the 01-03 or 04 Prius, who knows because no one has a manual trimmed Prius to compare against the CVT based counterpart? If the Prius with a manual was more economical, would you drive it? Would most drive it? The Prius is definitely not a sports car but the manual might just give better hwy mileage, lower emissions even further (CO2 in particular), and definitely give better 0 to 60 times. You make the call. ___Good Luck ___Wayne R. Gerdes |
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Great stuff: http://home.earthlink.net/~graham1/MyToyotaPrius/Understanding/Po- - werSplitDevice.htm http://home.earthlink.net/~graham1/MyToyotaPrius/Understanding/Po- werTrain.htm http://home.earthlink.net/~graham1/MyToyotaPrius/Understanding/Wh- atsGoingOnAsIDrive.htm For MSIE: Turn "Use animation in the web pages" on. |
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