Last post on Feb 13, 2011 at 8:08 AM
You are in the Ford Five Hundred/Mercury Montego
What is this discussion about?
Ford Five Hundred, Mercury Montego, Sedan
#2880 of 3623 Re: Gtee [ANT14]
Nov 14, 2005 (2:39 pm)
I just would like to clarify a few things:
1. Which Ford models sold in USA will use the CVT transmission for 2007 model year? As far as I know non.
2. CVT transmissions are capable of handling torque in the 250ft-lbs range. This is demonstrated by Nissan using CVT in Murano with 246ft-lb of torque. Ford chose not to use the CVT transmission in Fusion or 2007 model 500. They all use 6-speed automatic transmissions.
3. As far as I can tell CVT will be discontinued after 2006 model year. Yes I know some will be shipped to Europe, but you know in Europe 90% of cars are sold with manual transmission anyway. So the volume of CVT production in 2007 will be very low. What will stop Ford from canceling CVT all together. NOTHING. Soon the CVT will be just a foot note in history.
Right now there are not many problems with CVT transmissions, but they have only been out for one year. My 1994 Ford Thunderbird with AOD-E 4 speed transmission did not develop torque converter chatter until the car had 40K miles and was out of warrantee. This was a very common problem with Ford transmissions, almost every car built in 1994 (4.6 engine and AOD-E) had this problem, and it cost me $900 to fix it. Ford did not step up to the plate and pay for the repair.
Many companies have problems with transmission. My sister has a Honda in which the 5 speed automatic went out at 45K. At least that was fixed for free because of the recall.
The point is that not all transmission problems show up after one year. Some problems show up only after 3-4 years time when the car is out of warrantee. Why risk spending 6k to replace a CVT down the road? Why not just buy a Five hundred with 6-speed and not worry about future problems. I am sure that resale value of a Five hundred with a 6-speed will be higher then with a CVT.
#2881 of 3623 Sky Rockets in Flight...
Nov 14, 2005 (3:22 pm)
"1. Which Ford models sold in USA will use the CVT transmission for 2007 model year? As far as I know non."
The Freestyle AWD and 500 AWD will use it for MY 2007.
"2. CVT transmissions are capable of handling torque in the 250ft-lbs range. This is demonstrated by Nissan using CVT in Murano with 246ft-lb of torque."
No, all CVT's are designed for different torque loads, using different components (linked belts, or pulley are some examples). If Nissan is using one that it's limit is at 250TQ., and the engine pumps out 246TQ, then you have 4TQ room of error. All it'll take is any type of induction modification to the engine that will give it more power, to kill it's CVT. Sometimes to err in the side of caution, you do not take it close to it's peak load...(whatever it might be).
"Ford chose not to use the CVT transmission in Fusion or 2007 model 500. They all use 6-speed automatic transmissions"
Too expensive to place on a Fusion which starts at $16K.
"3. As far as I can tell CVT will be discontinued after 2006 model year."
There's plans for usage in other vehicles...
" So the volume of CVT production in 2007 will be very low. What will stop Ford from canceling CVT all together. NOTHING."
The factory is working at full capacity to fullfill orders, they have been for the past year. Fords investment in CVT's, and IVT (even better) will continue provided there's vehicles that can affordably accept them, in markets where they can be embrassed.
"My 1994 Ford Thunderbird with AOD-E 4 speed transmission did not develop torque converter chatter until the car had 40K miles"
I had a 96 with the 4.6L, with 82K miles when I turned it in. Can't say I had that issue, but only issue was a lightbulb that burned out.
"Some problems show up only after 3-4 years time when the car is out of warrantee."
I agree, by then CVT replacement costs will lower as more of them are available in the marketplace. Currently the factory is at full load, which makes it expensive to replace. Ironically the cost of the CVT is what makes it expensive, NOT the labor. Labor-wise, the CVT is cheaper to replace than the 6speed.
BTW, the Aisin 6 speed automatic is cousin to the 5 speed Aisin, which are supplied for use on Camry's, Lexus, Volvo's, and numerous other vehicles. And from the examples I have seen, it's not too nice seeing some of the headaches SOME of those owners are experiencing. Let's hope the 6speed Aisin proves better.
The GM/Ford JV 6A should do quite well. The internal life expectacy reports beat anything out there, and the materials and the simplicity behind it are far advanced from what competitors have to offer, or will offer for that matter.
Yes, unless some last minute senario occurs.
#2882 of 3623 CVT isn't repair trap
Nov 14, 2005 (11:11 pm)
There have been few issues with the CVT after a small number of miles, such as 5k or so. If the CVT develops a problem, it's been very quick in the life of the car. I haven't heard of a single problem at >10k miles. I know not a lot of people have had a chance to pile the miles on yet, but I doubt the transmission will be a big trouble spot. It was designed to last.
I love mine, it was one of the big selling points. The 5-speed on the company Explorer drives me crazy shifting all the time. I can't imagine what a 6-spd would be like. The CVT is smooth and is always in the right gear. It would be a shame for Ford to discontinue it.
Nov 16, 2005 (6:05 am)
I keep reading in the Wall Street J each morning how bad a time Ford is having with the sales of the Fivehundred.
But, each time I search the dealers inventories all they have on the lots are CVT and all wheel drives. Zip 17007.
No wonder they are having problems, there is not a six speed to even test drive. They must have made a bunch of CVT's and are now pushing them out the door.
#2884 of 3623 Nobody wants CVT
Nov 16, 2005 (10:18 am)
Exactly right griffman.
Some people just don't want to risk buying a car with new untested technology. If CVT was on the marker for at least 3-4 years and there was a low failure rate, then I would consider buying a car with this transmission. The way things stand now its new untested technology.
The maintenance costs of CVT are also greater than with the 6 speed. Fluid has to be changed every 30K or 60K with a CVT, while the 6-speed does not require any maintenance. As far as I know CVT uses special fluid that is not cheap. The CVT service at the dealer will run about $200. So if you drive for 100k miles and do the sever duty service it will cost you $600 extra for the CVT. On to the 6-speed version gets better gas mileage.
I think that people who buy a car with CVT should also purchase a 7year/100k power train warrantee. I think this will payoff big time down the road.
To me as an engineer, the CVT concept looks wrong. Itís like the Wankel engine that is used in the Mazda RX8. It looks good on paper, but only Mazda makes it. There must be some engineering or economic reason why other companies stick to piston engines. There must also be very good reasons why other companies stick to normal automatic transmissions.
Look at the facts:
The CVT development started in 1998 in a joint venture with ZF. http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3012/is_1998_Nov/ai_53290257
In 1998 Jack Nasser proclaimed that Ford would produce 1 million CVT transmissions per year in 2002. (We all know what great things Jack Nasser did for Ford)
In 2002 the CVT program was way behind schedule and so in 2002 Ford started to develop a conventional 6 speed with GM. This is the transmission that will be used with the new 3.5l engine. Notice that Ford did not want to develop a higher capacity CVT, NO. They went ahead with development of conventional 6 speed.
In 2004 ZF backed out of this venture, and Ford took over the manufacturing of CVT. The capacity was also reduced from 1 million units per year to 250,000.
Once Ford ramps up the production of new 6-Speed there will be no reason what so ever to produce the CVT. Mark my words, the CVT will be discontinued within two years.
#2885 of 3623 Re: Nobody wants CVT [gtee]
Nov 16, 2005 (4:15 pm)
very interesting post. if the cvt is discontinued, i think it will more due to cost than reliability. so far, that it the big issue with it.
not to cast some doubt on the new 6 speed, but the 5 speed was supposed to be maintenance free too. i have an '02 explorer and it shifts much better after having the fluid changed.
Nov 16, 2005 (5:41 pm)
Uh, the CVT's fluid is to be changed at 60,000 miles. Which is where I will be in a few months. At 100,000 miles the fluid will have been changed....once. So where is this $600 you are talking about?
Also, the CVT is in the AWD models...almost all the FWD models have the Six Speed...and the EPA testing methods do not reflect real life, especially for the CVT. I am regularly getting 28+ on the highway....I doubt I would do much, if any, better with the Six Speed. And I have the AWD, which adds weight and friction...
#2887 of 3623 Re: er [johnclineii]
Nov 16, 2005 (8:20 pm)
Your dose of reality is good.
#2888 of 3623 Re: er [johnclineii]
Nov 16, 2005 (11:26 pm)
>Uh, the CVT's fluid is to be changed at 60,000 miles. Which is where I will be in a few months. At 100,000 miles the fluid will have been changed....once. So where is this $600 you are talking about?
Actually the severe duty service recommendation for the CVT is fluid change every 30k. That is 90k/30k*$200=$600. That is how I got this number.
Also, the CVT is in the AWD models...almost all the FWD models have the Six Speed
Not true. Most FWD Limited and SEL and SE come with CVT. I looked for a FWD 500 with 6-speed and I could not find even one in Atlanta. All came with CVT.
the EPA testing methods do not reflect real life, especially for the CVT.
That is a good one. Yes blame the TEST. Itís the government's fault. Maybe its because the CVT is just not as efficient as a geared 6-speed.
The fact is that CVT has to maintain high internal hydraulic pressure at all times which consumes energy. Also the final drive ratio for a CVT is 5:1 compared to 2.41:1 for a six speed. The reason Ford had to go with a high final drive ratio is because the CVT cannot output sufficient torque. Since power = speed * torque, the transmission operates at a higher internal speed to deliver the power to the wheels. Maybe its the parasitic power loss from high pressure and high internal rotational speed that causes the CVT to have lower EPA number rather then the EPA's conspiracy against the CVT.
Look the real issue is not $200 or $600 over the life time of the car. The real issue is that CVT technology is simply not needed. I started this discussion because I simply don't understand why Ford is forcing this technology upon its customers. CVT does not offer any tangible benefits over geared 6 speed transmissions. If anything its more expensive, more maintenance prone, gets worst gas mileage and its unproven. Thatís too bad, because I really like the car.
Oh well I guess that I will just have to wait until 2007 when 500 comes out with 3.5l and a normal 6-speed transmission.
Nov 17, 2005 (4:19 am)
There are NO FWD Limited models with the CVT...there are AWD Limited Models with the CVT but no FWD Limited models with the CVT. ALL AWD Five Hundreds have the CVT. ALL FWD SELs and Limiteds have the Six Speed. FWD SE's can have either transmission, depending on when they were built and how they were ordered.
And there will be no GM/Ford Six Speed in 2007 Five Hundreds. The earliest that is currently expected is Model Year 2008. And that will be a new transmission, currently being introduced in some GM models, and soon some Ford models. The current Six Speed in the Five Hundred/Montego and the Fusion/Milan/Zephyr is from Aisin, a Toyota affiliate.