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Purchasing Used Vehicles

1678 messages,  Last post on Jun 07, 2012 at 6:51 PM

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#1659 of 1678 Re: Which would you choose to purchase? [plekto] by robbieg

Jun 02, 2011 (12:04 pm)

Replying to: plekto (Jun 02, 2011 10:07 am)
I am looking to spend about 20. My local no haggle used car has a 2009 Lucerne Super for 25,900 with 12,000 miles on it. I am only 40 and my wife is younger so a Buick is going to be a tough sell. That being said, part of me would love to have a "luxury" car after driving a Subaru for 6 years.
 
How would the CXS compare with a 300C in terms of driving and price? I am from PA and AWD would be a nice option.

#1660 of 1678 Re: Which would you choose to purchase? [robbieg] by plekto

Jun 02, 2011 (3:53 pm)

Replying to: robbieg (Jun 02, 2011 12:04 pm)
The Super has a worse V8.
 
When I said the 2006-2008 CXS (and only that exact model) drives like a S420, I mean *exactly* the same driving feeling. It was a magic moment for GM like the IS300 was for Lexus - and then they tweaked it further and it wasn't quite as special any more. The Super pushes the envelope a bit too far and feels a lot like the IS350 does - more of a muscle car feel to it instead of a perfect balance.
 
The big deal, though, is that the 4 speed in these cars is ~$1600 to fix. It's a much cheaper car to operate over the years, than, say, a CTS or the new Lacrosse. The DTS uses the same setup, IIRC.
 
The Magnetic Ride (MagnaRide) suspension is what transforms the car. The 300C couldn't handle 140mph+ on the Autobahn the same way. The CXS because of this suspension (which, incidentally is similar to systems BMW and Mercedes use), could do it easily. Total sleeper and the best Buick ever made. Yes, the Super in theory is "better", but it's also got a huge premium on it for more HP than you really need.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buick_Lucerne
2006–2008 4.6 L Northstar LD8 V8 279 cu in (4565 cc) 275 hp (205 kW) 6000 rpm 295 lb·ft (400 N·m) 4400 rpm
15/23 mpg
 
2008–present 4.6 L Northstar L37 V8 279 cu in (4565 cc) 292 hp (218 kW) 6300 rpm 288 lb·ft (390 N·m) 4500 rpm
15/22 mpg
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadillac_Northstar_engine#LD8
"it is designed to provide more torque than the high-revving L37"
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadillac_Northstar_engine#L37
"it is tuned for responsiveness and power, while the later LD8 is designed for more sedate use"
 
They put an older design L37 in the *new* cars. They destroyed the torque curve and actual mpg as a result. The LD8 hits its torque plateau several hundred RPM lower. This is exactly like how they tuned the Lacrosse CXS - it's a CTS 3.6VVT engine. But tuned for torque. Which it hits its plateau (pretty much a flat line, though not quite max) at 1400-1600rpm. The CTS requires you to rev it a consistent 500rpm more to really get going. Which both do quite well.
 
The result, though, is that the same era LaCrosse CXS drives like a diesel in that maximum power is available just off of idle. But with a gas engine top-end as well.
 
Why does this all matter? Overdrive.
 
You can hypermill the 2006-2008 CXS of both the LaCrosse and the Lucerne much easier as a result, since it will float up to speed with a much lighter throttle. And not shift out of overdrive to make modest transitions. It's the same way that a S class can go really fast but it is perfectly happy sedately floating around town *until* you need it to destroy some asphalt. Which, if you've ever driven an S class, it does quite easily.
 
NOTE - The L37 IS quite a bit faster once you hit 80mph+, where it pulls ahead quickly. But below that (or less than about half throttle), the LD8 simply runs better. It's basically the same torque and hp for both engines, but imagine the LD8 being rotated 15 degrees clockwise. The top end pretty much runs out past 4000 rpm, but the rest is better - the L37 comes alive past 3000rpm, much like a turbocharger kicking in.
 
But I don't drive Buicks or Cadillacs like that - there's no need in today's traffic. For normal driving, the LD8 runs better overall.
 
EDIT - the short answer: Better for normal driving base DTS engine. Performance/Platinum DTS suspension. 25% less cost, certified. win-win-win for the Lucerne vs the DTS. And it looks SO awesome in black and dark gray. The 4 little holes (vs 3) in the side is the only visual clue that you've got a sleeper rolling around town
 
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-forum/t-28869.html
Note BeelzeBob's response 2/3 the way down ( 01-14-05, 02:07 PM)
 
The LD8, especially if you get stiffer compound all-season tires on it (get something with a 60-80K mile warranty) will net you a realistic 2-3mpg overall difference due to taller gearing and better low-end torque.

#1661 of 1678 Dealer prep/transportation charge on a used car? by misterbill

Aug 04, 2011 (4:58 pm)

I just bought my first used car from a dealer (I had previously purchased one from a wholesaler who found one for me, but my other cars were all new). They had the car (2009 Hyundai Elantra) listed on Autotrader for $11,488 which was an excellent price. When I got there, after looking at the car (and telling the dealer horror stories about how I had found other dealers in the NYC area with very good deals only to find they had 1* ratings, while this place was close to 5*), he took me back to his desk to look at the contract before going on a test drive. To his credit, he pointed out a $595 dealer prep and transportation fee (what transportation??), and $295 for loan documents on the contract. I got him to take off the $295 fee when I told him I was paying cash (and he had to ask someone about removing that) but said they could not take off the $595. Since the price with the $595 was still $1k less than Edmund's retail TMV (and around the private sale TMV) I did the test drive and decided to buy the car (he also pointed out that he had looked and there was nothing else this cheap around). Is this sort of thing common among dealers (this is a new car dealer)? I'm trying to decide how much of a point I should make of this in my review. If nothing else, prospective customers should be made aware of it.
 
Their listings do say "Price excludes registration and title fees and taxes or vehicle mechanical and reconditioning fees" and they also mention a lending fee, so I was not shocked to find something like this on the contract. I will admit I was happy that they had the car, I was afraid it was going to be a bait and switch situation (there were a couple of comments on the dealerrater website about that, although their ratings were overwhelmingly good).

#1662 of 1678 Re: Dealer prep/transportation charge on a used car? [misterbill] by im_brentwood

Aug 04, 2011 (9:48 pm)

Replying to: misterbill (Aug 04, 2011 4:58 pm)
I don't think that I like the way the prep charge was done, however...
 
If that's the one at a Dodge store with 37k... I tried to buy it. FWIW, I'm the used car manager at a Hyundai store in Jersey... $11,500 is still a steal for that car if it's nice, I'd expect it to do that or better at auction right now so you did very well. I did notice on the Carfax report that they had the car for 60+ days so that's probably why it was marked down so much.
 
TMV is actually kinda low on these... Elantras are bringing huge money wholesale right now.. the 10s are still in the mid $13s and the 11s are just insane.
 
Enjoy it, they're nice cars!
 
Bill

#1663 of 1678 Re: Dealer prep/transportation charge on a used car? [im_brentwood] by misterbill

Aug 04, 2011 (10:15 pm)

Replying to: im_brentwood (Aug 04, 2011 9:48 pm)
I'm going to hold off posting more details until after I pick up the car, but I agree that it was a very good deal, although I prefer to think of the price as $12.1k (which still is not bad). What do other dealers charge for prep/"transportation" fees for used cars?
 
One thing I did find sad was how many sleazy used car dealers list on Autotrader. Really makes it hard to find cars worth looking at. They should be forced to show the dealer's rating in the listing and let you select based on that. Of course, that would hurt their business, which I'm sure is why they don't do it. Are there any car search engines that have that feature?

#1664 of 1678 Re: Dealer prep/transportation charge on a used car? [misterbill] by kirstie_h HOST

Aug 05, 2011 (8:35 am)

Replying to: misterbill (Aug 04, 2011 10:15 pm)
EBay is the only one I know of. At least there you can see other users' ratings of the seller.

#1665 of 1678 Re: Dealer prep/transportation charge on a used car? [misterbill] by im_brentwood

Aug 05, 2011 (8:56 am)

Replying to: misterbill (Aug 04, 2011 10:15 pm)
The problem with a lot of these rater sites, dealerrater being the biggest it seems, is that a number of dealers with rather good ratings are those that I wouldn't send my ex-wife's divorce lawyer to.
 
And I doubt Autotrader would do that, dealers pay to list there.
 
As far as the prep of $595 goes, I don't do that. NY dealers are limited to a doc fee of $75 or so, perhaps that's why they charge it. It's still important to look at the total price you're paying and if it makes sense, it makes sense.
 
We charge the standard fees here in Jersey... $389.50 doc, $189 etch. We do not charge any fee for financing or for prep. And our fees are standard whether or not you buy or lease or finance or trade or whatever.

#1666 of 1678 Re: Dealer prep/transportation charge on a used car? [im_brentwood] by plekto

Aug 05, 2011 (3:30 pm)

Replying to: im_brentwood (Aug 05, 2011 8:56 am)
Prep fees on a used car are padding and B.S. They have to get it into condition to sell as part of the normal process OF selling it.
 
I'd go to another dealer just out of principle if they tried to pull crap like this. Because the vast majority won't. A used car is a used car. All they can charge you is the doc fee. Anything else, and I mean literally anything else is part of the asking price of the car. It may be some odd paint protection fee or prep charge or ugly bling-o-riffic rims they slapped on it (they're sure to have the originals somewhere - ask for them instead).
 
New cars, of course, are a whole other thing. You're paying a hefty premium for the luxury of being the first owner. But there's literally tens of thousands of used cars clogging up dealer lots, probably just in most large states.

#1667 of 1678 Re: Dealer prep/transportation charge on a used car? [plekto] by misterbill

Aug 07, 2011 (9:38 pm)

Replying to: plekto (Aug 05, 2011 3:30 pm)
So, I picked up the car on Saturday and I did not have any problems (just as I was pleasantly surprised to find the car available when I got there to see it originally, I was happy to see it sitting in the lot with my plates on it when I went to pick it up).
 
plekto- I agree that the $595 charge is wrong and under other circumstances I would have walked. But I needed a car for my son (who was leaving for school in 3 weeks and was taking it with him), and I was having a lot of trouble finding a reasonably priced low mileage Elantra (for those who say there are plenty of them out there, I wish you'd been there to help me find one). Even with the $595 charge, the price on this car was less than I would have paid elsewhere (and that assumes no bogus fees at the other places), and $1200 less than the retail TMV ($100 more than the private sale TMV).
 
im_brentwood -- I'm curious to know when you tried to buy the car and what they told you. They still have it listed for sale on Autotrader (and their own site), I'm going to be curious to see if/when they take it down. I wonder what would happen if someone contacted them online and asked if it was still available (the salesman told me that they used to have problems with their online inventory and telling people that cars were still in stock when they were not but claims that was fixed a few months ago). I know that my local Hyundai dealer, (who had one with 10k more miles for $1500 more) took their listing down, so I guess they sold it.

#1668 of 1678 Re: Dealer prep/transportation charge on a used car? [misterbill] by im_brentwood

Aug 08, 2011 (8:02 am)

Replying to: misterbill (Aug 07, 2011 9:38 pm)
Called em last week IIRC.
 
$12,100 for that car is still cheap... they do that at auction. $1000 more for a CPO one with more miles is still cheap.
 
Im selling 2010s CPO'd in the 16s-17s and they sell quickly.

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