Last post on Jul 28, 2013 at 8:39 AM
You are in the Toyota Prius
What is this discussion about?
Toyota Prius, Hybrid Cars
Sep 19, 2003 (11:30 am)
"Remember the $8,000 - $9,000 hit you are going to take on a new 04 in a few months? "
Wayne : I think you added 1 extra '0'.
A 2001 Prius gets 14 K today, and that too because this is the last year for that model.
No Toyota vehicle loses that much in few months.
May be Hummer will lose that much.
By the way, most of the Americans drive only 15,000 miles or less in a year. If you drive 40,000 miles, then you are an exception.
That is why warranty is offered as
12 months / 12,000 miles
24 months / 24,000 miles
36 months / 36,000 miles
#1763 of 7508 Time to be responsible....
Sep 19, 2003 (12:27 pm)
the government isn't helping anymore. He, he, he.... now GM wants fuel cells. Gotta get that $2000 or even $1500 from the government. Can't do that? Then why give GM a few billion dollars for hydrogen????
#1764 of 7508 the article in the Japan Times
Sep 19, 2003 (12:28 pm)
Thanks for the info. Does this mean we'll acutally be able to test drive and see this new Prius in real life in October?
Also, just wanted to thank djasonw for the inspiring post about the value of this car. I commute in to Manhattan often twice a day and your points are well taken.
I just want to see the car first!
Sep 20, 2003 (1:29 am)
___From the Mrvadeboncoeur, links dated Dec. 30, 2001.
Quote: ďToyota's Dave Hermance, an environmental engineer who works with the automaker's hybrids, acknowledged that despite the early successes, there are "some issues with hybrids" -- such as how each Toyota Prius packs $3,500 worth of technology onto the price tag that the comparably equipped Corolla doesn't. "That's a premium on each car," he said.Ē
___This is the issue I have been speaking of and the one that will have the most effect on America as a whole ... If the above is true, it looks like $3,500 worth of technology for the Hybrid drive train. I am sure itís even cheaper now. With Toyota engineers saying the above, what I see was the ability for Toyota to sell the newly designed Corolla CE/S/LE w/ the same Hybrid tech as that in the new 04 Prius and still be profitable at $18,000 or less w/ the same features! Instead, Toyota develops a completely new Prius platform and decides to sell it for $20,500 +? I am going to guess it cost Toyota a billion dollars to develop the new Prius platform, not including the Hybrid technology. To get the $2,500/Prius vehicle sold back just to pay for the platform, Toyota has to sell 400,000 Priusí. That is a lot of Priusí in comparison to the total amount of Priusí Toyota has sold over the last 6 years! What was that, 150,000 or so? Why didnít Toyota just place the Hybrid tech in the recently redesigned Corolla platform for $2,500 less and sell them to not just those that can afford a $20,500 compact but those that can afford an $18,000 one as well? That places more efficient and Green cars in American hands and does so with Toyota possibly taking more money to the bank for future development as well? At $18,000, you are a lot closer to break even than you are at $20,500 +.
___You have also been talking emissions. Here is what I would like you to do. Go ask your parents what the difference between PZEV, SULEV, ULEV II, ULEV, and LEV are? Why not ask your neighbor(s), co-worker(s), significant other, or even your local car salesman? You may as well ask them what there current car is rated for? Most wouldnít have a clue what the differences are yet you seem to place it very high on someoneís list of needs in a new car purchase. What most would place on their wants and needs list is an automobile that doesnít cost an arm and a leg (itís affordable), that it is well suited for the task at hand, and who wouldnít want better mileage. When you quote PZEV getting over 45 mpgís, again, ask your parents what PZEV means to them. If it really means something to you, why arenít you wondering why Toyota didnít try and place the PZEVís in more peopleís hands at $18,000 instead of fewer at $20,500 +? Interesting question given the costs of the Prius platform I would assume?
___As for your waving the magic wand comment, Toyota just spent 100ís of millions on the Corolla redesign. Why would they have to make anything happen overnight? They had the money to do the redesign and they did it. Why didnít they just add the Hybrid drive train to the list of options? Far less costly then to create a new platform like they did with the 04 Prius, far less risk given the proven Corolla platform, and more Clean technology in the hands of that many more end users because of what should have been affordable in the first place for the betterment of all. If mechanics and salesman need to be trained, wouldnít it have been easier to train them on the Corolla with the optional Hybrid power train instead of the new Corolla and the new Prius? Again, saving money for the betterment of all including Toyota.
___Mrvadeboncoeur, as far as what tires were used and the noise the older Priusí produced at speed, I have to believe they were the same tires that came std. on the 01 Ė 03 Priusí being tested? I have never heard of a test drive from the likes of MT, C&D, Autoweek, or whoever where they would purposely swap out the OEMís tires for a different tire to add performance, handling, or for noise reduction. That wouldnít make sense? As for when the Corolla turned a profit, I havenít a clue nor do I care. They are making a profit today and I would suspect them to continue into the near future?
___Djasonw, when you option out an 04 Prius, you have a compact car w/ a hatch that costs around $25,000 not including taxes! You can add any of the available options to an Echo, a Corolla, a Camry, an Avalon, or any of Toyotaís truck lines if Toyota allowed it as well. If you want a compact that cost $25,000, so be it. I just hope you also remember what kind of residual you may have at trade in time because of a looming battery replacement. That residual may be even worse for those that load up their Priusí vs. the std. $20,500 outlay. As for turning itself on and off in traffic, ask your parents, friends, co-workers, or whoever what is on their mind in regards to a new vehicle vs. what should be on their minds (like PZEV) and ask them what they are willing to pay for it? Some might just think turning off at the light is nuts although the well versed know otherwise.
___As for the features you love, I love them too. The std. 04 Prius uses the key fob in a slot instead of the Key itself? Seems a bit different but the available keyless option is really thinking out side the box and I love it. The only problem is that you have to purchase a $4,000 + option package to get it. My HP iPAQ has bluetooth and itís the darndest NAVI you have ever could imagine with the latest Navtech maps from May of this year via Mapopolis. CVT ... Yes, very nice. It is supposedly less expensive and lighter weight than a manual or Auto plus its smoother and more efficient! A hatchback? I had one in a stripped down 83 Chevy Chevette econobox 20 years ago Its to bad they didnít place it on the Corolla at probably 0 cost as well?
___As far as the 03 Corolla w/ manualís gas mileage, I wouldnít know anything about that since I receive > 40 mpg from an 03 LE w/ Auto at > 60 mph w/ A/C running! I seem to remember many Prius reviewers getting in the mid 30ís (or was it low 40ís?) when ever it was reviewed. Again, itís TCO and this is where the Prius stumbles. Unfortunately, many will not know about that until many years down the road ... At least it looks great and has a tremendous drive train.
___Yerth10, the $8,000 to $9,000 hit John is about to take is on his 01 when he trades it in for the 04. He hopes to receive $13,000 for it but paid $20,500 + tax minus the government deduction (not credit) for the 01 when it was new. Just in case you didnít know, Edmunds and KBB say an 01 Toyota Prius including cruise in good condition w/ 60,000 miles should be priced as follows:
Edmunds: Trade in Value: $10,110 Private Party: $11,932 Retail: $13,631
KB Book: Trade In Value: $10,160 Private Party: $11,505 Retail: $13,840
Sep 20, 2003 (1:37 am)
____Hmmm ... Edmunds Town Hall forum must have a limit to the number of characters in a post as it cut off the rest of it ... I guess I type to much
Here is the finish ...
___Here is an 01 w/ just 4,000 miles on it at a Volvo dealership just 11 miles away from me: http://www.cars.com/search/used/cc/standard/results/single/ld/detail.jhtml?paId=131805550&aff=national&src=&cid=null.
Did you see the price they are asking? $13,995 w/ just 4000 miles! I saw it on the lot when I was looking for one and it is clean. How much do you want to bet we could pick it up tomorrow for $11,500 - $12,000 from that dealer? Do you now understand why I mentioned John is about to receive an $8,000 to $9,000 hit or more in the next month or two? That is a lot of dollars to lose in 3 years and ~ 60,000 miles for a car smaller than an Echo with ~ 20% better gas mileage and lower emissions than an 01 Corolla ...
___Jchan2, remember that $2,000 is a deduction, not a credit. Itís only worth your tax rate X $2,000.
___As always, I love the 04 Prius for many reasons but the economics donít work out just yet. Fortunately for Toyota, many wonít consider the economics. Anyone with a cutoff of $20K, wonít be purchasing one although they could have purchased an $18,000 version and Toyota would have possibly made just as much profit if not more given the huge amount of Priusí they will have to sell to pay for the new platforms design ...
___Good Luck to you all.
___Wayne R. Gerdes
#1767 of 7508 Prius, Corolla
Sep 20, 2003 (4:03 am)
the reason toyota did not put a Corolla LE Hybrid out on the road is because many people would be choosing the Corolla instead of the Prius, thereforre incurring a loss on the Prius that the Corolla can not make up or break even. A 01' Prius with only 4000 miles????? Come on. That car has to have been in an accident or something.
Sep 20, 2003 (4:48 am)
How many times have you paid attention or turn your head to a guy who drives a Corolla? It is like owning a Camry and a ES330, they might drive similar, but the feeling is day and night.
In fact, the feeling of driving one of these thing is better than driving a ES. Because now you can ask the guy who owns a S500 or M3, do you have one of these engine? Dude!
Sep 20, 2003 (5:45 am)
> $3,500 worth of technology
How rapidly do technology costs fall?
The answer is, so fast that the quote is no longer accurate.
> it looks like $3,500 worth of technology for the
> Hybrid drive train. I am sure itís even cheaper now.
Where did it say "drive train" only?
That technology actually includes all the computer components and the Multi-Display too.
So the song I've been singing of "now less than $3,000" is quite realistic now, especially if you eliminate the Multi-Display.
> I am going to guess it cost Toyota a billion dollars to develop
> the new Prius platform, not including the Hybrid technology.
It doesn't cost that much anymore. The latest & greatest CAD systems allow amazing new designs to be tested at much, much lower costs. Also, how do you know that the budget quotes for the classic Prius didn't also include this development step? Remember, the Japanese culture is based on long-term effort, quite different from the mindset on this side of the world.
> To get the $2,500/Prius vehicle sold back just to pay
> for the platform, Toyota has to sell 400,000 Priusí.
That's why the system is *MODULAR*, which allows it to be installed in other vehicles. And guess what. You'll find it in many other hybrid vehicles starting next year. So the volume goal, which is actually 300,000 units, can be achieved.
> Why didnít Toyota just place the Hybrid tech in the
> recently redesigned Corolla platform
They will. Patience.
Regardless of how you feel, the reality is that Toyota is progressing much faster than all of the rest of the competition... COMBINED! So the rate of progress is actually rather swift.
> When you quote PZEV getting over 45 mpgís, again, ask
> your parents what PZEV means to them.
The oldest generation will typically ask one of their children for help before making such a significant purchase decision, too much money is at stake to not ask. They are well aware of the fact that the label indicating "cleanest" is something they aren't familiar with.
The 20-something generation will find the answer within seconds. Label information provides very little challenge. They just look it up on the internet or ask a friend. They are also far more interested in what the impact of our current actions will have on the future than the oldest generation.
Asking someone who just recently became a father or mother how important the quality of the air is and how important reducing our dependence on oil is will yield a potent response. THEY ARE VERY CONCERNED!
> Corolla redesign
You are assuming that the redesign isn't capable of supporting a hybrid drive train, why?
How do you know that the weight requirements and connecting mounts aren't ALREADY designed to do exactly that?
Waiting until that newly redesigned model is already common makes a whole lot more sense than introducing it immediately; otherwise, people would assume it was designed to be a hybrid rather than a traditional vehicle adapted to be one afterward. Make note of how well that worked for Honda. The concept is ALREADY established. Waiting so the same thing could be done makes a lot of sense.
> you have a compact car w/ a hatch
All of the reviews compliment about how much more spacious the interior of the new Prius is. Continuing to insist that the car is still a "compact" is totally inappropriate. It is bigger. Face the facts.
> available keyless option is really thinking out side
> the box and I love it. The only problem is that you
> have to purchase a $4,000 + option package to get it.
The "AI" package (Rear Wiper, Anti-Theft system, Homelink, Electrochromic Rearview Mirror, Smart-Entry, Smart-Start) is only $1,100. And the "BI" package (Rear Wiper, Driver & Passenger & Side Airbags with Curtains, Smart-Entry, Smart-Start) is only $1,280.
> itís TCO and this is where the Prius stumbles
You are basing your "facts" on a brief test-drive a reporter took. That's not the best of ideas. Their data is extremely limited.
Ask actual owners what their real-world data is after having driven for a couple of years, that is far more useful information. You'll find that the midpoint for efficiency is around 45 MPG, which is quite a bit higher than what a reporter unfamiliar with the vehicle got.
> the $8,000 to $9,000 hit John is about to take is on
> his 01 when he trades it in for the 04.
First, you can't consider the sale of a first year model of a brand new type of car "typical". Later as people become familiar with what the hybrid has to offer, the value will become more competitive so I'd get a higher return on my investment.
Second, my Prius is in excellent condition. Not just good. And the dealer agrees.
Third, you are forgetting that I don't have to pay taxes on the trade-in value for my old Prius when purchasing the new one. That means I will immediately save an additional $800.
> but the economics donít work out just yet.
You're preaching to the wrong crowd. Americans love to spend money on vehicles that are not economical. Just take a close look at a parking lot for your local grocery store sometime. Many of the vehicles there cost far more than the person actually needed to spend.
Sep 20, 2003 (6:25 am)
TOC (Total Ownership Cost) estimates leave out one very important factor.
It's something that makes Prius even more appealing (so you can imagine the type of response that will get when you point it out to those that don't support the hybrid technology).
A grim reality that more and more people have to face nowadays is the fact that their high-mileage vehicle, which still runs great, does not pass the emissions test. They end up having to spend hundreds of dollars unexpectly to have the vehicle tuned to be cleaner.
Since the primary purpose of the HSD (Hybrid Synergy Drive) in Prius is to reduce emissions as much as possible, that is the least of concerns you'll have to deal with later in its life. Traditional vehicles can't claim that.
So the next time someone shows you a TOC estimate, ask them where the emission expenses are for the traditional vehicle they are comparing to. If they are missing, the value listed should not be considered complete.
Prius keeps getting better and better the more you learn about it. Sweet!
#1771 of 7508 Prius Review
Sep 20, 2003 (8:33 am)
I read this review of an 03 prius http://www.epinions.com/content_101851696772
and the owner did not like it one bit. She said that you have to drive the car for at least 30 min. every two weeks, or it voids the warranty. Is that true?