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Hybrid Vehicles Hybrid Vehicles - Archived Discussions Who can compete with Toyota/Lexus Hybrids? 
126 messages, Last post on Nov 28, 2003 at 11:50 PM
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>>Yes, that is a genuine benefit. But the primary purpose of HSD (the hybrid system Toyota uses) is to significantly REDUCE EMISSIONS, not save fuel. If that truly is the purpose then Toyota's investment seems like a gigantic waste of money. Ford is about to sell a PZEV Focus whose emissions are said to be as clean or cleaner than the air we breath. How can you "significantly" improve on that? Also, you can't reduce CO2 w/o reducing fuel consumption. Your comment leads me to believe that Toyota does not view reducing this type of emission as a priority. The fact is that the primary benefit of a hybrid system is to recapture kinetic energy that is currently being thrown away during decelaration. This is valuable whether your car runs on conventional gasoline, diesel, hydrogen or soybean oil. The greatest benefits will be achieved in vehicles of large mass that make frequent stops. Sounds a lot like a bus to me. Granted the technology used on these buses will to some extent have been developed and refined on smaller vehicles. Luckily for Toyota et. al. there are people like yourself willing to subsidize their R&D. If/when these vehicles become profitable for their manufacturers hopefully they will show their gratitude by offering some sort of rebate to you early adopters, unlikely. One more point. The efficiency penalty incurred by the additional weight of the battery pack should be largely recovered due to the fact that more weight equates to more energy to recapture. |
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You seem to have overlooked the word "PRIMARY". Just because it isn't the top on the priority list doesn't mean it isn't there at all, it's just lower. In the case of the PZEV Ford Focus, there is an efficency penalty. MPG is about 2 lower. In the case of the PZEV Toyota Prius, there is a very significant gain. MPG is about 25 higher. JOHN |
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| I don't think so. I feel fairly certain that if you asked 100 people what they perceived as the "primary" purpose of incorporating hybrid technology in automobiles 99+ would answer greater fuel efficiency. In fact, if I remember correctly from one of your earlier posts on another thread you stated that Toyota could have made their Prius cleaner but it would have been at the expense of fuel efficiency. Why would they do this if their "primary" purpose was reduced emissions? | |
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Or, as I like to think of it, excellent performance without sacrificing gas mileage. Most of the hybrid concepts shown by Honda/Acura are actually sport models (DN-X, IMAS, Spocket, RD-X, etc.). A Pop Sci article refered to it as "electric turbo-charging". The RX hybrid is a great example, as is the Escape HEV. The rumored RL is another. Hybrid power has quite a few applications. And in the luxury and near luxury level, the cost increase isn't as big a factor. |
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| I agree. The time will probably come where the decision to buy a hybrid is driven as much by a desire for performance as fuel efficiency. | |
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Hi John1701a: Quote: “In the case of the PZEV Ford Focus, there is an efficiency penalty. MPG is about 2 lower. In the case of the PZEV Toyota Prius, there is a very significant gain. MPG is about 25 higher.” In the case of a PZEV/SULEV rated Prius vs. Focus, I believe a PZEV rated Focus costs ~ $12,750 or less given the rebates avaiable? ___There is an extremely significant cost incurred to acquire a PZEV based Prius over a PZEV based Focus for the sake of fuel economy alone. In fact, it is AT LEAST $8,000 more significant! Besides the fact the Focus is not only extremely fast given its 148 HP/> 150 Ft. - Lb’s of torque engine but is a great handling compact by any reviewers own notes and has a $3,000 cash back for those interested in an 03 PZEV model until 12/03 ... I have the same 2.3 L I-4 engine in my brand new $9600 03 Ford Ranger XLT minus the PZEV HW of course and it is very powerful indeed. ___According to CARB, it costs automobile manufacturers ~ $100 to $300 more to design and create an automobile to meet the more stringent PZEV rating ... In fact, you probably lost as much in depreciation on your last Prius then the new PZEV Focus costs in total if all you were going to do is save the environment! Again, if all you were interested in was saving the environment, you could have had almost $10,000 in your pocket to do the same  I can’t say the same for greenhouse gases however. ___Good Luck ___Wayne R. Gerdes ___Waynegerdes  earthlink.net |
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The design supports it! Just take a look at how Prius actually operates. It runs the gas engine solely for the purpose of heating up the emissions system (for more effective exhaust cleansing). This is VERY EASY to prove too. Just turn the key and listen. Even when the temperature is a comfortable 80 F degrees, no need for passenger heat or the A/C yet the engine will run anyway, even if you aren't moving. That is for the sole purpose of lowering SMOG form emissions at the penalty of increased CO2 emissions and the consumption of gas. JOHN |
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quantity may be the very thing that is needed to bring the hybrids more into line price-wise. Economy of scale and all that... Having said that, Prius seems to be pretty price-competitive now - lots of content and midsize for $20 grand. I do have a soft spot for hatchbacks though! Now that the niche of super-high mileage cars has some good entrants, it will be great to see what they can do with vehicles that have lots of extra power (maintaining fuel economy standards rather than bettering them) using a hybrid system. |
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Hi Nippononly: ___I concur with the larger sales to lower costs ... I also believe Toyota wasted a billion or two dollars by creating the entire Prius nameplate instead of placing 36,000 hybrid motors in the 03/04 Corolla sedan or hatchback ... Subsidize a Hybrid Corolla to the tune of 1 billion and they could charge less for a Corolla Hybrid then a std. ICE based one quite easily! Now watch sales. ___As for super high mileage vehicles, I don’t think enough is enough myself. The Tokyo Auto show previewed the Daihatsu UFE-II. As it stands, it appears to be almost an Honda Insight look-alike from the rear and the new 04 Prius from the front. With a measured Cd of just .19, this thing is approaching that of a bullet It is estimated to achieve 130 to 140 mpg in the Japanese Hwy loop ... With only a .6L ICE/Hybrid for propulsion, I have to wonder what its 0 to 60 times are. 0 to 60 in 13 or less would be fine for an actual 100 to 110 mpg here in the US for sure ... Where do I sign up as long as it’s inexpensive! I saw on another site that the UFE-II uses an Atkinson cycle based ICE to achieve its fuel efficiency ala 04 Prius. Although usually gutless, combined with its extremely lightweight body and electric’s, it may just make a hell of a mini! To bad they don’t make a version for the US or Japanese market in the near future? It will have to lose the Gull Wings for practical use however  Here is the pic’s link: http://www.thecarconnection.com/images/gallery/tmb/7440_image.jpg ___Would this vehicle replace the std. 4 or 5 door sedans and /or SUV’s that we are used to? Not a chance but what about as a third vehicle for commuting purposes alone? If the costs are inline, let’s say $10 - $11K initial cost, you may just begin to see a swap over to this type of vehicle on the road for work and even some pleasurable commuting. Less congestion, lower emissions, lower fuel dependency, and even more Hybrid’s on the road due to the much lower initial cost. I don’t know what the UFE-II costs so I may be just whistling in the wind but given it weighs half of what most cars on the road do, has seating for just 2 vs. 4 + for most everything else, has only 1/3 to ½ the engine capacity, it simply has got to be cheaper to produce then the Prius or any other Hybrid/Diesel for that matter. Imagine the much smaller NiMH battery pack to propel this lightweight as well? ___Good Luck ___Wayne R. Gerdes ___Waynegerdes earthlink.net |
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