Last post on Nov 29, 2003 at 12:50 AM
You are in the Hybrid Vehicles - Archived Discussions
This discussion is ARCHIVED. To reactivate the discussion, post a request in the Lost? Ask the Hybrids Host for directions! discussion.
What is this discussion about?
Lexus, Toyota Prius, Honda Insight, Ford, Hybrid Cars
Oct 27, 2003 (8:45 am)
___When did I ever say I donít like the fact Toyota will sell any number of Hybridís? I really want to know how many they sold in regards to the number of buses being reportedly piloted as mentioned in this thread. As for other threads, they sold 120,000 then? Camryís and Corollaís sell that in what, 4 months, not 4 years! This is where the market speaks with its dollars. I also donít approve of the fact that you and many like you that purchased a Hybrid took a $11,000 + bath on an 01 after just 60,000 miles is all. YOU DID TRADE YOUR 01 IN AFTER 60,000 miles, correct? The Insighterís are really getting creamed, the HCHís are getting creamed, and the older Prius owners are getting creamed. If this is the cost of a Hybrid, how can you make it up? And how much was the 01-03 Prius battery pack replacement again? Someone has to change your old Prius out eventually or will they just throw the car away at 120, 150, 180K miles? I will be driving the Corolla through the first mileage marker in another year and a half. I will keep you up to date as to if I had to throw it away at that time all the while getting > 40 + mpg on the hwy with the very low TCO as has already been posted.
___Buses in my area usually run ~ 4 hours/day vs. the smaller school districts which run much much less. Again, if the TCO doesnít work out, they arenít going to go to a Hybrid. I only hope the GM solution is cheap enough to make it work right out of the box. $ís actually account for something here where itís being watched.
___Logic1, I completely agree but with todayís cost cutting across all sectors of the economy, the numbers and TCO have to work out or it will not be a consideration to the detriment of us all.
___Nippononly, the EPA does a lot of mandating but I havenít seen them pay for anything The real positive to this is that some cities are making a go of it and I can only hope the Hybrid bus system is close enough in cost to make the TCO equal or better over the desired time frame. If it is, we will all benefit from cleaner air and lowered costs for service. Well maybe not lowered cost of service ... If it doesnít; Hybrid drive automobile/truck manufacturerís designers and engineers will have to sharpen their pencils a bit before we see it in quantity.
___Wayne R. Gerdes
Oct 27, 2003 (10:14 am)
>>Yes, that is a genuine benefit. But the primary purpose of HSD (the hybrid system Toyota uses) is to significantly REDUCE EMISSIONS, not save fuel.
If that truly is the purpose then Toyota's investment seems like a gigantic waste of money. Ford is about to sell a PZEV Focus whose emissions are said to be as clean or cleaner than the air we breath. How can you "significantly" improve on that? Also, you can't reduce CO2 w/o reducing fuel consumption. Your comment leads me to believe that Toyota does not view reducing this type of emission as a priority.
The fact is that the primary benefit of a hybrid system is to recapture kinetic energy that is currently being thrown away during decelaration. This is valuable whether your car runs on conventional gasoline, diesel, hydrogen or soybean oil. The greatest benefits will be achieved in vehicles of large mass that make frequent stops. Sounds a lot like a bus to me.
Granted the technology used on these buses will to some extent have been developed and refined on smaller vehicles. Luckily for Toyota et. al. there are people like yourself willing to subsidize their R&D. If/when these vehicles become profitable for their manufacturers hopefully they will show their gratitude by offering some sort of rebate to you early adopters, unlikely.
One more point. The efficiency penalty incurred by the additional weight of the battery pack should be largely recovered due to the fact that more weight equates to more energy to recapture.
Oct 27, 2003 (10:34 am)
You seem to have overlooked the word "PRIMARY".
Just because it isn't the top on the priority list doesn't mean it isn't there at all, it's just lower.
In the case of the PZEV Ford Focus, there is an efficency penalty. MPG is about 2 lower.
In the case of the PZEV Toyota Prius, there is a very significant gain. MPG is about 25 higher.
Oct 27, 2003 (10:53 am)
I don't think so. I feel fairly certain that if you asked 100 people what they perceived as the "primary" purpose of incorporating hybrid technology in automobiles 99+ would answer greater fuel efficiency. In fact, if I remember correctly from one of your earlier posts on another thread you stated that Toyota could have made their Prius cleaner but it would have been at the expense of fuel efficiency. Why would they do this if their "primary" purpose was reduced emissions?
Oct 27, 2003 (10:56 am)
Or, as I like to think of it, excellent performance without sacrificing gas mileage. Most of the hybrid concepts shown by Honda/Acura are actually sport models (DN-X, IMAS, Spocket, RD-X, etc.). A Pop Sci article refered to it as "electric turbo-charging".
The RX hybrid is a great example, as is the Escape HEV. The rumored RL is another. Hybrid power has quite a few applications. And in the luxury and near luxury level, the cost increase isn't as big a factor.
Oct 27, 2003 (11:19 am)
I agree. The time will probably come where the decision to buy a hybrid is driven as much by a desire for performance as fuel efficiency.
Oct 27, 2003 (11:29 am)
Quote: ďIn the case of the PZEV Ford Focus, there is an efficiency penalty. MPG is about 2 lower. In the case of the PZEV Toyota Prius, there is a very significant gain. MPG is about 25 higher.Ē In the case of a PZEV/SULEV rated Prius vs. Focus, I believe a PZEV rated Focus costs ~ $12,750 or less given the rebates avaiable?
___There is an extremely significant cost incurred to acquire a PZEV based Prius over a PZEV based Focus for the sake of fuel economy alone. In fact, it is AT LEAST $8,000 more significant! Besides the fact the Focus is not only extremely fast given its 148 HP/> 150 Ft. - Lbís of torque engine but is a great handling compact by any reviewers own notes and has a $3,000 cash back for those interested in an 03 PZEV model until 12/03 ... I have the same 2.3 L I-4 engine in my brand new $9600 03 Ford Ranger XLT minus the PZEV HW of course and it is very powerful indeed.
___According to CARB, it costs automobile manufacturers ~ $100 to $300 more to design and create an automobile to meet the more stringent PZEV rating ... In fact, you probably lost as much in depreciation on your last Prius then the new PZEV Focus costs in total if all you were going to do is save the environment! Again, if all you were interested in was saving the environment, you could have had almost $10,000 in your pocket to do the same I canít say the same for greenhouse gases however.
___Wayne R. Gerdes
#85 of 126 primary purpose
Oct 27, 2003 (11:42 am)
The design supports it! Just take a look at how Prius actually operates.
It runs the gas engine solely for the purpose of heating up the emissions system (for more effective exhaust cleansing). This is VERY EASY to prove too. Just turn the key and listen. Even when the temperature is a comfortable 80 F degrees, no need for passenger heat or the A/C yet the engine will run anyway, even if you aren't moving.
That is for the sole purpose of lowering SMOG form emissions at the penalty of increased CO2 emissions and the consumption of gas.
Oct 27, 2003 (11:50 am)
quantity may be the very thing that is needed to bring the hybrids more into line price-wise. Economy of scale and all that...
Having said that, Prius seems to be pretty price-competitive now - lots of content and midsize for $20 grand. I do have a soft spot for hatchbacks though!
Now that the niche of super-high mileage cars has some good entrants, it will be great to see what they can do with vehicles that have lots of extra power (maintaining fuel economy standards rather than bettering them) using a hybrid system.