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Hybrid Vehicles Hybrid Vehicles - Archived Discussions Who can compete with Toyota/Lexus Hybrids? 
126 messages, Last post on Nov 28, 2003 at 11:50 PM
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piece in the Chicago Tribune today reports GM has a contract with Seattle to fit 235 buses with hybrid diesel systems. One done, this will be the mileage saved equivalent of 8,000 hybrid cars. GM is also working on similar deals with cities such as Philadelphia, Minneapolis, Portland, Ore, Austin, Orange County and Houston. |
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> mileage saved Yes, that is a genuine benefit. But the primary purpose of HSD (the hybrid system Toyota uses) is to significantly REDUCE EMISSIONS, not save fuel. How much cleaner are those buses? Or are they actually dirtier in terms of SMOG related emissions? JOHN |
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a prop? Bus use in general is better than cars. 60 people on a bus versus sixty people in 60 cars is bad for the atmosphere how? In any event, GM's new diesel engines use the same modern filtering equipment as other diesels. No doubt emissions are very low. And when divided by 60, even lower. |
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Hi John1701a: ___Not only does a bus carry vast amounts of commuters, it also doesn’t congest our cities nearly as bad as 60 automobiles nor does it have to park in our chosen professions parking lot! 750,000 gallons of diesel fuel is a huge amount of greenhouse gasses (CO2) not being released into the atmosphere. Let alone a diesel is ~ 20% more efficient in regards to greenhouse gases/mile vs. a std. ICE. Even an Atkinson based ICE is a larger polluter in this regard  Add a more efficient overall process and the Buses diesel won’t be polluting nearly as much/mile as its forbearer either. ___As for the article, I just got home an hour or so ago myself and read it. Here it is in its entirety ... General Motors has reached agreement to equip 235 buses for Seattle with hybrid diesel/electric power that the automaker says could save the city 750,000 gallons of fuel each year. The annual fuel savings for Seattle’s bus fleet would be equal to replacing more than 8,000 internal combustion gas engine cars with hybrids. GM has pilot hybrid bus fleets in Philadelphia; Minneapolis; Portland, Ore; Austin, Texas; Salt Lake City; Hartford; Conn.; Orange County, Calif.; Houston; and Newark, N.J. ___Remember, this is just one city. Lets say ~ the same amount of buses were converted in all 10 cities. That is the equivalent of 80,000 Hybrid’s. I wonder what Chicago, New York, and L.A. are waiting for? Keep adding it up with the inclusion of commuters transported and lower emissions. How many Prius’ have been sold over the last 3 years? Now all we have to do is hope it’s cost effective or it won’t be continued in quantity ... ___Good Luck ___Wayne R. Gerdes ___Waynegerdes  earthlink.net |
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> How many Prius’ have been sold over the last 3 years? 28,000 have been ordered in the last month alone worldwide. That's a significant growth rate. What GM is attempting is great, but what are their long-term & volume goals? School buses drive a lot of miles too. Will school districts be able to afford that technology? And will GM even offer it to them? For that matter, will other cities get the opportunity to buy? Also remember that the qualified service mechanics will be an issue. Toyota has already commited to offering HSD in every non-commercial vehicle they build by 2010. That's empowering consumers, not just a few choice groups that will provide good PR opportunites. JOHN |
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Hi John1701a: ___Here was the specific question. How many Prius’ have been sold over the last 3 years? As usual, you don’t answer specific questions but instead try and cover up inadequacies. ___Here is the analysis for you nice and simple like ... 235 buses will be introduced with a GM Hybrid Diesel solution. According to the article, it is similar to placing 8,000 Hybrid’s on the road. So one city (namely Seattle) decides to give it a shot and if the COSTS work out, it will do more for our environment and our fuel dependency in that one city alone then every Hybrid sold into that state EVER. I will ask you again, how many Prius’ have been delivered in the last 3 year’s? What’s better, those few ten’s of thousands of Hybrid’s on the road carrying usually 1 person or 1,000, 10,000, 100,000 + buses that are either on the road or soon will carrying between 10 and 60 people at a time? I am all for the Hybrid solution for all vehicles but you keep missing the fact that there are more Corolla’s and Camry’s sold in a month then the 01 – 03 and even the 04 Prius’ in a year. Why is that? Could it be because people wouldn’t like to receive 51mpg on the hwy or 60 mpg in the city? Could it be because they wouldn’t like to own a PZEV automobile? Not in the least. It’s because Hybrid’s are simply expensive. If Seattle does not see a positive ROI in some reasonable period of time, they won’t be doing another Diesel Hybrid bus pilot program purchase either. I just hope GM has the costs figured out for all of our sakes. ___As for the school bus situation, given the average school bus operates for all of maybe 2 to 3 hours per day max, how is a Hybrid solution ever going to work out in that case? It will only work if the costs come down dramatically. Lets all again hope the Honda iCTDi Diesel can be a harbinger for change in that market as well. ___Now as far as who can compete, I sure hope someone can because the costs being stated for today’s personal Hybrid’s cannot be justified as you found out with your 01 trade in. ___Good Luck ___Wayne R. Gerdes ___Waynegerdes earthlink.net |
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> How many Prius’ have been sold over the last 3 years? Don't like the fact that just 2 years from now Toyota is planning to selling 300,000 hybrid system per year, eh? Current sales rates confirm that's possible. The market 3 years ago didn't have a clue how hybrids worked. So sales were difficult, yet the number climbed to 120,000. And today, lots of people still think they can't travel far and need to be plugged in. Look forward, not backward. > given the average school bus operates for all of maybe > 2 to 3 hours per day max You obviously don't live in the suburbs. The buses in my area run elementry, middle, and high schools routes. That's 3 hours in the morning, 3 hours in the afternoon, and a lot of idling while they wait to pick up students. That's much more running time than your estimates and a heck of a lot miles with the population in the suburbs spread out so much. > as you found out with your 01 trade in Trade in data only counts IF YOU TRADE IN. Many people plan on keeping their vehicle. And focusing on the resale value of a rare, first model year vehicle is kind of silly. It will naturally be lower. Focus on the value of a more established year instead, like the 2005. By then, sales figures will be more in line with other vehicles commonly sold and the vehicle won't be a new concept anymore. JOHN |
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| I agree it would be great if systems as big as Chicago, LA or New York would adopt the Hybrid buses. Funding is always a problem with transit companies. The technology saves fuel, probably makes the buses more quiet and pleasant to ride, and will reduce emissions. The cities should find the funding. | |
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Agree school buses should also be hybrid. GM makes school buses. Schools for the most part are underfunded. Paying extra for the buses would mean convincing local taxpayers the long term savings on fuel would more than make up for the higher costs up front. Unfortunately, about the only thing voters seem to get excited about when it comes to their local schools are initiatives to stop art programs and ban books. |
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| is something the EPA should mandate, then help pay for. | |
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