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Hybrid Vehicles Hybrid Vehicles - Archived Discussions Who can compete with Toyota/Lexus Hybrids? 
126 messages, Last post on Nov 28, 2003 at 11:50 PM
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I was just thinking of their overall fleet averages, with the preponderance of large trucks and full-size cars. But you are right, some of their smaller and midsize cars get good mileage - the new Malibu is rated higher than the Toyo/Honda competitors, I believe, on the 4-cyl. I can't wait until Toyota has an SUV with a hybrid powertrain, and Honda has a sport model...between the two, a few of the folks here who are traditionally against them might begin to see the light. I do see the point above of diminishing returns with diesel-electric hybrids vs straight diesels, but even after the low-sulfur diesel arrives, I will still wait to be convinced on the subject of particulate trapping... |
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RE: diesels---I think you have to also look at the overall picture with these diesel engines. Diesel fuel contains more BTUs per volume than gasoline, which is an advantage for energy conservation, and also, if engineered right, a diesel can put out tremendous power. By power I mean torque, or if I were an engineer I wouldn't use terms like horsepower and torque, but rather "cylinder pressure", a more meaningful term. Anyway, you can get LOTS of power out of a diesel at very modest rpms. A turbo diesel truck engine easily puts out over 600 HP at 1700-2000 rpm, and will do that all day long. Of course, those are very large displacements, but still, that is impressive. RE: Toyota hybrid SUV---you don't have to wait--it's here in the Lexus 330 or coming very soon at any rate. You can order one already I think. |
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Electric Motors do an even better job of handling torque than diesels, hence diesel-electric trains. A diesel engine is used to generate electricity, then a motor consumes it to create pulling power. JOHN |
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If you were an engineer, you wouldn't say power when you mean torque, or vice versa. 
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not the luxury froo-froo RX, but rather an everyman SUV....looks like that will probably be the Highlander in about 18 months, from what they are estimating now... Now what is needed to convince the rest of the naysayers is a Honda hybrid sport coupe with at least the performance stats of a Civic SI. (and mpg in the 50s...yessssss!) Sport is not Toyota's strong suit, and besides it does not fit their business philosophy to put hybrid powertrains in their low-volume sport coupes like celica. I just hope they go ahead with their plans to bring out a new Supra! (OK, that last was off-topic, sorry!) I do hope Toyota does not falter in their plans to bring hybrid powertrains to all their mainstream offerings, camry, corolla, etc. |
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a hybrid Spyder. Quick and nimble with extraordinary fuel mileage. I can just see myself on a winding country road, top down, snicking through the gears ......... oops, THS is not compatible with a manual transmission, .... Nevermind. |
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that is why Honda needs to be the one to bring on the hybrid sport coupe - their hybrid system allows the use of a manual! What if they added an electric to the existing EX engine and put it in an SI chassis? The 127 hp 1.7 gets great mileage already - I am sure hybridizing it would bring mileage up to match the levels of the new Prius, only the car would be faster and smaller and handle well. |
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| that a hybrid Civic EX would match the new Prius' fuel mileage, but it might be a car that I would buy (price dependent, of course). Better yet, why not an update of the 1.6L Si engine with IMA. | |
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i don't think any american or european car company can compete with toyota or even honda. they are the only two automakers not fully or partially own by any other maker. toyota did a great job in scaring the german back in 1990 when it rebadged its japanese line to be known as lexus and priced it dirt cheap and more reliable compared to mercedes. back in those days, its flagship car, the ls400, was competed with the mid-range e-class. no one dared to touch the mercedes flagship s-class. but look at lexus now, its ls430 is a direct competition to the s-class and with the e500 price range. as for ford, it delays its intro to a hybrid for another year. merc and bimmer are working on either fuel cell or hydrogen hybrid. baloney! we have to wait to see if honda will improve its hybrid too. i owned both mercedes, '89 and '00 e-class, and '99 lexus rx300 and let me tell you the lexus was far more luxurious than my '00 e-class. i would put my bet on toyota to further refine the hybrid technology and someday we may see it on a lexus. i read somewhere that your '04 toyota sienna xle limited actually feels like a lexus. hat off to toyota to have come out with its second gen prius while others are still in the "research" phase. |
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daysailer---if I were an engineer, I would never use EITHER term, torque or horsepower, I would use cylinder pressure. I guess engineers think terms like "horsepower" and "torque" are marketing terms cooked up by suits in ad agencies. They may be right. But if horsepower is just torque at speed well then some diesels are very MIGHTY indeed. One of the Hemmings magazines was talking about this, how a six cylinder 12.4 liter diesel engine, under turbo boost, would theoretically deliver around 1,200 HP at 3,500 rpm. Now a Viper is 8 liters at 500 HP, so that diesel is doing a great (theoretical) job. |
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