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Hybrid Vehicles Hybrid Vehicles - Archived Discussions Who can compete with Toyota/Lexus Hybrids? 
126 messages, Last post on Nov 28, 2003 at 11:50 PM
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What strikes me very hard about the new Prius is that this is a futuristic vehicle that actually works right here and now. It's something like what photography was back when it first started. If you look at say Civil War photos, they are remarkably good. And this "science" came out decades before electric lighting and telephones or even indoor plumbing (1848 or so). What makes me think that the hybrid is (in some form) the car of the future is that the Prius actually approximates the performance of a normal car! In other words, it is ALMOST as good and it's only been out a few years. This is a far cry from the first pathetic electrics and diesels, which were, and which remained for decades, substantially inferior to their gasoline counterparts. Better technology always wins if it has the ability to displace the competing technology. Cassettes knocked out 8-tracks, and DVDs are just about ready to digest VHS. But the rotary did not displace the piston engine and solar heat did not replace natural gas. I think hybrids have the "right stuff" to replace the conventionally powered gasoline engine because they will deliver a car just as fast, just as roomy, giving upwards of 100 mpg pretty soon (Prius is at 60 mpg CITY driving!) and....here's the clincher...it won't cost any more than a very average conventional car. Honda is even talking (so I've heard) about a hybrid NSX will the performance to match the previous reputation. Think about that! Not sure how this relates to tow vehicles, mass transit, heavy trucking, etc., but one step at a time. |
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I was at the "Engine of Changes" event today. There were four 2004 Prius being test driven. When asked how the feel was, one person actually called it "Lexus Quality" since the transmission is so amazingly smooth. I wonder how the heck the other automakers are going to compete with that. JOHN |
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They aren't. Toyota is going to beat them senseless in this market. This soooo much reminds me of 1973 when the first gas crisis hit. Of course, the Big Three were blind-sided by the gas crunch (to be fair, so were most Western governments), and the Japanese fell right into a pot of gold, mostly unintentionally, by having Datsun 510s, Corollas, Coronas and Civics fully developed for the marketplace. All that's keeping the boom in hybrids from happening are one or two economic and/or environmental circumstances, any of which is certainly within the realm of possibility. It isn't far-fetched to think of gas at $3 a gallon or of environmental regulations tightening up even more as scientific data gets better. I like the new hatchback style for the Prius. Reminds me of the old Saab 900 5-door hatches, where you could drop the back seats and stuff a piano in there. Somehow the Prius has managed to lower the floor height and also make a fairly attractive car as well. And acceleration is right in whispering range of the PT Cruiser and Range Rover, according to my 0-60 stats (two of the slowest cars on the market today). The big question is, though, how are we ever going to get a nice engine sound out of these things? |
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According to Honda's CEO, they are not taking the hybrid route with the NSX. However, this could easily be just another bit of their infamous subterfuge. That said, the engine under the hood of the HSC concept car looks an awful lot like the design used in the DN-X. http://www.popsci.com/popsci/auto/article/0,12543,220824-1,00.htm- l I expect this is what we'll see with the RL, but perhaps not in the first year. We'll see. |
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I was just thinking of their overall fleet averages, with the preponderance of large trucks and full-size cars. But you are right, some of their smaller and midsize cars get good mileage - the new Malibu is rated higher than the Toyo/Honda competitors, I believe, on the 4-cyl. I can't wait until Toyota has an SUV with a hybrid powertrain, and Honda has a sport model...between the two, a few of the folks here who are traditionally against them might begin to see the light. I do see the point above of diminishing returns with diesel-electric hybrids vs straight diesels, but even after the low-sulfur diesel arrives, I will still wait to be convinced on the subject of particulate trapping... |
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RE: diesels---I think you have to also look at the overall picture with these diesel engines. Diesel fuel contains more BTUs per volume than gasoline, which is an advantage for energy conservation, and also, if engineered right, a diesel can put out tremendous power. By power I mean torque, or if I were an engineer I wouldn't use terms like horsepower and torque, but rather "cylinder pressure", a more meaningful term. Anyway, you can get LOTS of power out of a diesel at very modest rpms. A turbo diesel truck engine easily puts out over 600 HP at 1700-2000 rpm, and will do that all day long. Of course, those are very large displacements, but still, that is impressive. RE: Toyota hybrid SUV---you don't have to wait--it's here in the Lexus 330 or coming very soon at any rate. You can order one already I think. |
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Electric Motors do an even better job of handling torque than diesels, hence diesel-electric trains. A diesel engine is used to generate electricity, then a motor consumes it to create pulling power. JOHN |
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If you were an engineer, you wouldn't say power when you mean torque, or vice versa. 
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not the luxury froo-froo RX, but rather an everyman SUV....looks like that will probably be the Highlander in about 18 months, from what they are estimating now... Now what is needed to convince the rest of the naysayers is a Honda hybrid sport coupe with at least the performance stats of a Civic SI. (and mpg in the 50s...yessssss!) Sport is not Toyota's strong suit, and besides it does not fit their business philosophy to put hybrid powertrains in their low-volume sport coupes like celica. I just hope they go ahead with their plans to bring out a new Supra! (OK, that last was off-topic, sorry!) I do hope Toyota does not falter in their plans to bring hybrid powertrains to all their mainstream offerings, camry, corolla, etc. |
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a hybrid Spyder. Quick and nimble with extraordinary fuel mileage. I can just see myself on a winding country road, top down, snicking through the gears ......... oops, THS is not compatible with a manual transmission, .... Nevermind. |
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