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Honda Civic, Mazda Protege5, Coupe, Hatchback, Sedan
#87 of 130 timing belt and prices
Aug 20, 2003 (5:35 am)
I don't think the new Si has a timing belt, I remember seeing somewhere in the manual that it had a timing chain.
As far as the price difference, I got the Si for $14,500 for the left over 2002 in January 2003. Similarly loaded Protege5 with the sunroof, and ABS was more like $17,000. I also looked at Matix XRS/Vibe GT, but when similarly packaged it was more like $19,000.
According to Edmunds, if I were to trade-in the Si right now, I can get $14,600 for it. Not bad!!!! It is given that real world trade in may be in the high $13K's, still not bad. And I got it all financed at 1.9%
2002 Honda Civic 2 Dr Si Hatchback
Trade-In Private Party Dealer Retail
National Base Price $13,471 $14,542 $16,328
Optional Equipment $0 $0 $0
Black $18 $19 $22
for Zip Code 07470 $58 $62 $70
7,000 miles $665 $665 $665
Outstanding $394 $405 $466
Total $14,606 $15,693 $17,551
Certified Used Vehicle $18,101
2002 Mazda Protege5 4 Dr STD Wagon
Trade-In Private Party Dealer Retail
National Base Price $9,313 $10,298 $11,940
Optional Equipment $523 $568 $716
Antilock Brakes $218 $237 $298
Power Moonroof $305 $331 $418
Black $-30 $-33 $-38
for Zip Code 07470 $-21 $-24 $-27
7,000 miles $636 $636 $636
Outstanding $0 $0 $0
Total $10,421 $11,445 $13,227
Certified Used Vehicle $13,777
I entered same mileage and vehicle condition.
Even if the Si was bought at the same price as the P5 was selling at the time ($17K), Si would have only lost $3000 (from $17K to $14K) Protege5 on the other hand would have lost $7000 on the trade-in. Pretty sad. I understand that current resale of P5 is hindered by the $2250 rebate from Mazda. But even if you factor in the $2250, Mazda still lost $5000. In reality, I may even make money if i trade in now
I hope I have made my point.
#88 of 130 Counterpoint
Aug 20, 2003 (5:53 am)
Who sells their car after 8 months? Personally, I wait at least 18. That gives me just enough time to get the car how I like it, and I have just spent money for new tires, aluminum pedals, speaker upgrades, etc., so I will never get any of that back.
I suppose the moral is, if you routinely make bad purchase decisions, then the Honda is the way to go, so you don't loose too much money when you have to get rid of it.
I luckily made this same mistake with a VW Jetta which, at the time (2001), still had a pretty good resale value like Hondas and Toyotas. I see that is has slipped some in the last 2 years. I can only assume this is due to the horribly unreliable products they have been selling in the interim.
#89 of 130 Timing Chain
Aug 20, 2003 (5:59 am)
I couldn't find any information one way or the other about a timing chain. If it does have one, then you should get it checked for adjustment every 60k or so. That should be a $10 service charge unless it needs adjustment.
#90 of 130 I am in the market...
Aug 20, 2003 (6:45 am)
...and these two (Pro5, Civic) are the options that I am considering. I have a Civic (98 LX) already which has given flawless service so far - not even a down battery (touch wood).
Took a test drive of Pro5 the other day - engine makes more noise than speed, ride is downright punishing and one definitely needs an extra set of tires for (Canadian) winters. On the plus side, maneuverability is better than Civic (not Miata like though), body roll is minimized and the shifter is fun. Also, the interior space appears to be more than that in Civic.
On the whole, Pro5 is the best return on the money in that class, with incentives and all. I am actually pondering whether to go whole hog and buy a Mazda6 or stick with Pro5.
#91 of 130 Lets be fair now.
Aug 20, 2003 (6:45 am)
You compared a brand new model current year P5 to a left over Civic Si? Do you really think thats fair? You also get side-airbags and a nice 6CD changer with a P5 equipment package thats not on your list.
How about right now?
Right now you can get a 2003 P5 for $15k even here in St. Louis. I bet the best deal you could get on a 2003 Civic Si is $17-17.5 range. Thats at least $2000 difference. If you add ABS, side airbags, moonroof, and 6CD changer to the P5 the difference is STILL at least $1000. Once again long term resale is reflected in the intial price.
Now if you are worried about resale in 8 months then you should get a Honda for sure. In fact it would be better to get a 1 year lease on a Honda. On the other hand if you are going to keep it 5-10 year range resale really does not matter very much. In 10 years, 15k miles a year, the Honda will be worth about $3000. The P5 will probably be worth about $1500 on the low end. BUT since you borrowed less initially, paid less interest, paid off higher interest loans, and/or invested the difference, the real difference is not significant.
Both the Si and P5 are nice cars. The Si costs more now and is worth more later. The P5 costs less now and worth less later. Take your pick because after 5 years or so it really does not matter.
All my information is from carsdirect or msn.
Aug 20, 2003 (7:26 am)
> ...and these two (Pro5, Civic) are the options that I am considering.
Are you considering a regular Civic (coupe or sedan) or the Si?
> Took a test drive of Pro5 the other day - engine makes more noise than speed, ride is downright punishing and one definitely needs an extra set of tires for (Canadian) winters. On the plus side, maneuverability is better than Civic (not Miata like though), body roll is minimized and the shifter is fun. Also, the interior space appears to be more than that in Civic.
The only Civic I test drove was the Si. It is a sweet drivetrain, but a little peaky. I've got about 1800 miles on my P5 now, and it's breaking in nicely. It seems to rev more smoothly and develop more power than it did when it was brand new.
I find I'm driving the P5 differently than my old Integra (an '87 1.6L). (Most Honda engines I've driven felt peaky to me; you need to keep rowing the gears.) The Integra had a very fun, windy engine, with a flat torque curve; all the power was in the top end. The P5 has a lot more torque and better mid-range power, so I find I'm not revving it as high, and not shifting as much. Keeping it in the midrange seems to do the trick.
The P5 makes engine noise, but it's nice engine noise, especially once it loosens up after initial break-in.
I can't really compare the P5 with the Civic EX (or any other coupe/sedan model) because I didn't drive any other Civics. My primary need was for a hatch and the Si was the only Honda to fit the bill. So I don't know how the other Civics drive.
I've blathered on about the P5's handling in other posts, so I won't waste everybody's time again with that. It's Good. If you're looking for a cushy ride, the P5 may be the wrong car. If you're looking for great handling, though....
Interior is all a matter of taste. I'm not totally geeked on the P5's interior (VW still has the design edge, IMO), but I like it better than the Si's. With the exception of a few minor ergonomic quirks it's an easy car to live with. The seats are great, the driving position is great (for me), and the boot space is great.
> On the whole, Pro5 is the best return on the money in that class, with incentives and all. I am actually pondering whether to go whole hog and buy a Mazda6 or stick with Pro5.
Can't answer that one, but the Mazda6 hatch looks very enticing. The upcoming Mazda6 wagon looks really nice, but only if they offer it in a stick.
Aug 20, 2003 (7:57 am)
I'm sorry, I did overstate it. Your numbers do work out if one puts the difference between purchase prices into a good investment and keep the car and the investment long enough.
I do think that's reaching, though. Seems like a very long was 'round the mulberry bush to neutralize the resale price difference. The strategy fails if the car is totalled. And requires commitment to driving an old, high milage car, which is counter productive if 'fun to drive' is the original priority.
Aug 20, 2003 (7:59 am)
The only way to get ABS on P5 is to get a package with side airbags. The side air is a $200 option in the Si, as ABS is standard. Sunroof is also standard on the Si, while to get the sunroof on P5 you have to get it as a package with 6 cd changer. What if I am not into changers? I like my MP3 stereo better than any changer. It holds 10-15 cd's worth of music, and reads out the name of the song and artist. Either way I replaced the stereo in my Si with the MP3 unit and steering wheel mounted remote control.
The current price on the P5 packaged similarly to the Si is $17,585 (-$2250 rebate OR 0% financing)
The current price on the Si with optional side air bags (to match P5) is $17,299 with 1.9% financing.
If both cars start out at the same price, (the difference between $17585 (let's say you go for 0% and forego the rebate) and $17,299 is negligible) and after 1 year the Si is worth $14,000 while P5 is worth $10,421 you tell me which has better resale value.
Even if you do take the rebate and birng the price of P5 down to $15335 (at 6% APR, or pay cash), after 1 year you still lose over $5000, while the Si has only lost $3000. $2000 is pretty big chink of change. The only advantage P5 has over Si is the 5 door configuration, that is if you really need 5 doors. I am not going to mention Si's HP advantage over P5, as well as Recarro seats with suede, and really neat shifter with really really really smooth engagement. If there were a 5 door Honda Civic available in the US (available elsewhere), it would have decimated Matrix/Vibe, Protege5, and Focus ZX5 sales.
Aug 20, 2003 (8:37 am)
"after 1 year the Si is worth $14,000 while P5 is worth $10,421 you tell me which has better resale value."
Yes, its true. If you only keep your car 1 year (or even 3) the Honda is better to buy. BUT it also lost $3000 so you could have almost leased a BMW for the same time and then got a new one at lease end. Its relative. All cars, short of exotics, lose value. Under 3-5 years its just better to lease so you really cannot compare that to buying both. In particular when cars have good resale like Hondas. If you like having new cars all the time (3 years or so) over saving money Hondas make sense to lease, not buy. The lease plans for Hondas are almost too good to be true.
So if you want to talk short run then I will make the arguement that its really silly to buy either (the Mazda in particular) when you can lease them for less in the span of 1 year. The "buy" new does not factor in for me unless I plan on at least 5 years.
Also, the Si is indeed different than the P5. It does a lot of things BETTER. Better engine, better performance, more aftermarket stuff, etc. The P5 on the other hand can actually carry 5 people in relative comfort, and cargo, and still appeals to the over 30 crowd. It really depends on what you want.
If I was going to get a P5 to only keep it for a year I would not get a new one, I would get a used one and let someone else to take the loss. If I were going to get a Si to keep for only a year I would have to lease.
Aug 20, 2003 (9:28 am)
"If there were a 5 door Honda Civic available in the US (available elsewhere), it would have decimated Matrix/Vibe, Protege5, and Focus ZX5 sales."
What? The Si is here now, priced about the same, and I don't see it tearing into ZX3 sales.
The fact is, Honda dropped the ball on this one. If they suddenly decide to enter this market by bringing a 5-door Civic over here they WILL have to play catch-up. The hatch market is growing evidenced by larger cars getting 3/5-door variants a la the Malibu and M6. Those who don't get in early will be left behind.