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Honda Civic, Mazda Protege5, Coupe, Hatchback, Sedan
#81 of 130 icvci
Aug 19, 2003 (4:03 pm)
"I never said any of that."
You are too funny.
Were supposed to be discussing the P5 verses the Civic by the way. But for the record, it seems obvious to me (although I am lacking those two advertising/marketing classes) that Mazda might have a problem with touting the reliability of the B-series pickups since THEY ARE 90% (I'll admit I'm guessing here) A FORD DESIGN! That's like saying GM should have taken credit for the reliability of the Geo Prism. (hehehe)
But hey, we're all entitled to our opinions (are we not?).
And to stay on topic, (and unrelated to the above rant) keep in mind that the Civics would need an additional $1000 worth of suspension upgrades to match the out of box performance of the P5. The Si might hold it's own though. Anyone got slalom numbers?
#82 of 130 Slalom numbers and stuff
Aug 19, 2003 (5:16 pm)
Slalom related (**based on 2000 numbers**):
http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/comparison/articles/43900/page044.- - - html
I believe that its all relative to whats out there so I picked a test that did a whole bunch of related cars. Without knowing the variance between tests, number of times they were done, and so on, its hard to separate them based on simple performance numbers.
The Protege is faster through the slalom and stops more quickly but I still like the Civic engine for its refinement. Anyway there are some interesting things there:
1) 0-60 times: The average is 9.3sec. One deviation is 0.88sec. BOTH are slower than average, the Civic more than one deviation slower.
2) Slalom average was 60.1mph with a deviation of +/-1.97mph. The Protege was one deviation faster at 62.5mph. The Civic was slower by one deviation at 57.5mph.
3) Stopping 60-0: Average is 140.1ft +/- 8.3ft. The Protege is just about 1 deviation better than average. The Civic is 2 full deviations worse than average.
This was based on 2000 numbers. Please check my math because I did it quickly.
I just got the 03 numbers to download. The numbers for the Civic and Protege are nearly identical.
2003 Honda Civic 0-60: 10.5, 60-0: 129.3, slalom: 62.7.
2003 Mazda Protege 0-60: 10.4, 60-0: 121.8, slalom: 62.1.
http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/comparison/articles/100022/page019- - .html#performance
#83 of 130 10+ Seconds 0-60??
Aug 19, 2003 (7:32 pm)
That seems awfully high for either of these cars. Sounds like they were running automatics uphill. C&D clocked the 2003 Protege LX at 9.4 and the 2003 Civic LX at 9.3 0-60. C&D does adjust their numbers for atmospheric conditions while Edmunds may not.
C&D list the Civic Si at 8.0 seconds 0-60, but those were definitely different testing conditions than the Civic LX and the Protege LX, so YMMV.
Aug 19, 2003 (8:42 pm)
Your numbers are rediculous. They apply to one situation only, if they actually apply to that one. You're talking about taking the $1K you don't spend on the Civic and investing it on day 1 to return an additional $1K after 10 years. That just might work if the car isn't totalled; and, even if it does work out that way, you've put an extra $1K into the Pro on the front end and committed to 10 years's ownership just to equalize the costs.
I agree with the 'buy what you like' point. Just on the 'like' factor alone, I chose the Si. That it costs $2K+ less than the Pro5 to own for 5 years is just gravy.
#85 of 130 Owner's satisfaction
Aug 20, 2003 (12:04 am)
I have notice on the P5 boards and the M6 boards that practically no one who owns one of these Mazdas is complaining! P5 & M6 owners seem to have more positive raves than Civic owners owners (based on board posts not a review of Edmunds owner's reviews). Mazda is getting a lot right with the P5.
I looked very closely at both these cars as I was deciding on my next hatch. The P5 was very appealing, but style a bit too stiff & too bold for me. I have had great experience with Hondas (92 Civic Si & a 97 Del Sol Si)and I really liked driving the 03 Si.
In the end I bought a worthy, but under appreciated Elantra GT because it had all the right stuff, was more comfortable than P5 or Si (quieter and smoother), has better mileage & warranty and was significantly less expensive with significantly more goodies. With a Tiburon rear sway bar the decent cornering became outstanding! I plan to keep for at least 5 yrs so resale not a big concern. I also think that the Elantras quality is approaching the Japanese cars. You will note that Elantra owners are also very satisfied & I am one of them.
The P5 and Si all are excellent cars, but give the EGT a try before you buy.
#86 of 130 RE: Ridiculous numbers
Aug 20, 2003 (4:07 am)
Really? OK then explain how I did it. AND it applies in ALL cases not just here. It never pays in the long run to by the more expensive car. Never. What you are really paying for is the brand, quality, reliability, performance and so on.
I looked at the Civic EX and the Protege ES (both auto without the ABS option). Once again they are comparable. Most savy shoppers will cross shop those to see which they like better. My plan was to put $5000 and finance the remainder over 24 months (about $10k). Some facts: When I bought my car the Civic EX auto was selling for $1500 more than the Protege ES auto in the St. Louis area (Lou Fusz was the lowest on the Protege and Leta Honda on the Civic).
Thats $1500 difference. So what that means is that I could put $3500 down on the Protege instead of $5000 and invest the remainder from day 1 AND make the same payments. I did exactly that. Anyone could. How is this ridiculous? The same would apply if you were going to put $2000 down or $10000 down.
In case you care I invested it in 2 bond funds. TIAA-CREF High Yeild Bond and Bond Plus. You can go check the returns if you want but the High Yeild fund is up over 15% year to date and the Bond Plus about 10%. These are not best funds either....I just like the low fees associated with TIAA-CREF. If that keeps up (which I doubt) I will double my money every 5 years. So the investment I made instead of the higher money down on the Civic will have grown to $3000 or more easily by the time I get my new car. Oh but wait I only paid 0.9% for 24 months on my Mazda loan which Honda would not match AND I paid off the car in 12 months so I did not pay much interest either. I could do that partially because of the investments I made 3 years ago when we got my wifes Subaru Outback Ltd. instead of the $6000 more expensive VW Passat.
So in summary:
$1500 difference in down payment + 0.9% interest rate. The $1500 invested at (5-15%) until I get my new car.
If I had taken home the Elantra and invested the $3000 difference......whhoooo, thats a lot of money. But I like my car so its fine.
So where exactly was my math wrong?
#87 of 130 timing belt and prices
Aug 20, 2003 (5:35 am)
I don't think the new Si has a timing belt, I remember seeing somewhere in the manual that it had a timing chain.
As far as the price difference, I got the Si for $14,500 for the left over 2002 in January 2003. Similarly loaded Protege5 with the sunroof, and ABS was more like $17,000. I also looked at Matix XRS/Vibe GT, but when similarly packaged it was more like $19,000.
According to Edmunds, if I were to trade-in the Si right now, I can get $14,600 for it. Not bad!!!! It is given that real world trade in may be in the high $13K's, still not bad. And I got it all financed at 1.9%
2002 Honda Civic 2 Dr Si Hatchback
Trade-In Private Party Dealer Retail
National Base Price $13,471 $14,542 $16,328
Optional Equipment $0 $0 $0
Black $18 $19 $22
for Zip Code 07470 $58 $62 $70
7,000 miles $665 $665 $665
Outstanding $394 $405 $466
Total $14,606 $15,693 $17,551
Certified Used Vehicle $18,101
2002 Mazda Protege5 4 Dr STD Wagon
Trade-In Private Party Dealer Retail
National Base Price $9,313 $10,298 $11,940
Optional Equipment $523 $568 $716
Antilock Brakes $218 $237 $298
Power Moonroof $305 $331 $418
Black $-30 $-33 $-38
for Zip Code 07470 $-21 $-24 $-27
7,000 miles $636 $636 $636
Outstanding $0 $0 $0
Total $10,421 $11,445 $13,227
Certified Used Vehicle $13,777
I entered same mileage and vehicle condition.
Even if the Si was bought at the same price as the P5 was selling at the time ($17K), Si would have only lost $3000 (from $17K to $14K) Protege5 on the other hand would have lost $7000 on the trade-in. Pretty sad. I understand that current resale of P5 is hindered by the $2250 rebate from Mazda. But even if you factor in the $2250, Mazda still lost $5000. In reality, I may even make money if i trade in now
I hope I have made my point.
#88 of 130 Counterpoint
Aug 20, 2003 (5:53 am)
Who sells their car after 8 months? Personally, I wait at least 18. That gives me just enough time to get the car how I like it, and I have just spent money for new tires, aluminum pedals, speaker upgrades, etc., so I will never get any of that back.
I suppose the moral is, if you routinely make bad purchase decisions, then the Honda is the way to go, so you don't loose too much money when you have to get rid of it.
I luckily made this same mistake with a VW Jetta which, at the time (2001), still had a pretty good resale value like Hondas and Toyotas. I see that is has slipped some in the last 2 years. I can only assume this is due to the horribly unreliable products they have been selling in the interim.
#89 of 130 Timing Chain
Aug 20, 2003 (5:59 am)
I couldn't find any information one way or the other about a timing chain. If it does have one, then you should get it checked for adjustment every 60k or so. That should be a $10 service charge unless it needs adjustment.
#90 of 130 I am in the market...
Aug 20, 2003 (6:45 am)
...and these two (Pro5, Civic) are the options that I am considering. I have a Civic (98 LX) already which has given flawless service so far - not even a down battery (touch wood).
Took a test drive of Pro5 the other day - engine makes more noise than speed, ride is downright punishing and one definitely needs an extra set of tires for (Canadian) winters. On the plus side, maneuverability is better than Civic (not Miata like though), body roll is minimized and the shifter is fun. Also, the interior space appears to be more than that in Civic.
On the whole, Pro5 is the best return on the money in that class, with incentives and all. I am actually pondering whether to go whole hog and buy a Mazda6 or stick with Pro5.