Mazda Protege5 vs. Honda Civic - Car Forums

You have saved this page | See all saved pages

Mazda Protege5 vs. Honda Civic - READ ONLY

130 messages, Last post on Dec 12, 2003 at 6:28 AM

You are in the Hatchbacks - Archived Discussions Forum.

Your Host is pf_flyer

This discussion is ARCHIVED. To reactivate the discussion, post a request in the Lost? Ask the Hatchbacks Host for directions! discussion.

What is this discussion about? Honda Civic, Mazda Protege5, Coupe, Hatchback, Sedan

#111 of 130 Go to another dealer by icvci

Aug 21, 2003 (7:25 am)

$20,000+ for a loaded Civic EX? Not around here. Here you can pick them up for $18,000 or less. IMO the lower models are the only ones that would be cross-shopped. And in that case you'd get a lot less going with a CR-V LX or (Whatever the lower Element is) than going with the upper end EX Civic.

Get this. A guy at work just bought a Civic EX sedan auto for $16,300 out the door! (No SAB) He bought it in Toledo. (About a 75 mile drive from here.) I don't know what you'd put on it to drive the price over $20,000.

Just speculation anyway so who really cares?

#112 of 130 cannibalizm by dudka

Aug 21, 2003 (8:04 am)

I don't think a 5 door Civic would cannibalize CR-V/Element sales. Civic Ex 4 door ($15,300) costs more than Accord DX ($14,500). The DX Accord is only slight less loaded. DX does not have A/C, power doow locks, cruise, nor sunroof. Everything else found on Civic EX is there: ABS, power windows...
Do we see a lot of people cross shopping Civic with Accord?

Focus ZX5 ($16,443 ($3000 reabte not included) premium sport), and Matrix ($15,597 XR FWD) certainly did not cannibalize Escape ($16,300 value FWD) and RAV4 ($16,541 Base FWD) sales.

#113 of 130 Yeah - that Accord DX by ashutoshsm

Aug 21, 2003 (8:45 am)

... is just an advertising leader, so Honda dealers can advertise their "As low as 14,499" sales in your Sunday newspapers. Almost none are built, and almost no one cares to buy one. If someone had exactly that budget, though, they might want it - most peole will throw in the extra $ and get the LX.

And if someone notices the similar prices, and cross shops the Civic EX and Accord DX, they'll give up as soon as they find they have to compromise on a lot of things, including availability!

#114 of 130 Civic 5-doors and microvans by smasher

Aug 21, 2003 (9:53 am)

"I have to admit, the 5-door Civic does look better than the Si. However, it's still the ugly duckling when compared to the P5 if you ask me. Others might see differently though."

Yeah, but if you want something which doesn't look as good, doesn't handle as well, and costs more, that thing is a winner!

It's interesting to see the small wagons going toward the microvan design (Civic 5-door, VW Touran, Matrix/Vibe, PT Cruiser). Even the new Mazda3 looks blockier and more microvannish than the P5.

I'm just not keen on trucklike vehicles (like the CR-V, Escape, Tribute, RAV4, etc.), even if they're based on cars. It's kind of a shame the Impreza (base model or WRX) doesn't have more competition in the States. How cool would it be to have the Familia SP20 here--P5 with MSP drivetrain and AWD? Mmmmm....

#115 of 130 by baggs32

Aug 21, 2003 (11:06 am)

"Even the new Mazda3 looks blockier and more microvannish than the P5."

That seems to be the general consensus around the M3 threads as well and it's exactly why I won't cross the 5-door SVT Focus off of my list just yet. I've already crossed the Vibe off though. Just can't get into it.

"$20,000+ for a loaded Civic EX? Not around here."

It's probably not around here either, but it is what the sticker says. The CR-V's sticker is only about $1500 more. Both EX's too.

"I don't know what you'd put on it to drive the price over $20,000."

Security system, 15" aluminum wheels, SAB's, 6-disc in-dash CD changer, floor mats, cargo net, AT. I think that came out to about $20,100. Most of that comes standard on a CR-V EX doesn't it?

"Focus ZX5 ($16,443 ($3000 rebate not included) premium sport), and Matrix ($15,597 XR FWD) certainly did not cannibalize Escape ($16,300 value FWD) and RAV4 ($16,541 Base FWD) sales."

To get the same options as the ZX5 premium in an Escape you're looking at anywhere from $23,000 - $25,000 for the latter. Factor in rebates and the difference is nearly $10,000! It's not like that with the two Honda's.

I'm staying away from comparing "what I can get at my dealer" prices because there is too much variation from region to region.

#116 of 130 by icvci

Aug 21, 2003 (12:04 pm)

I'm staying away from comparing "what I can get at my dealer" prices because there is too much variation from region to region.

Few people pay sticker. And the fact is, you'd really have to work to buy a Civic for $1500 less than a CR-V. (And you'd be silly to do so.) They charge $80+ for floor mats, does anyone fall for that? www.manhonda.com will sell them to you shipped to your door for $50.

To get the same options as the ZX5 premium in an Escape you're looking at anywhere from $23,000 - $25,000 for the latter. Factor in rebates and the difference is nearly $10,000! It's not like that with the two Honda's.

Well, I just went to ford.com and priced a Focus ZTW wagon.

Weather Package $150.00
- Heated Seats
- Heated Side Mirror

   Sport Group $525.00
- 16" Five-Spoke Alloy Wheels
- Fog Lamps
- AM/FM Stereo 6-Disc In-Dash CD Player with Digital Clock & 4 Speakers
- Driver Side Lumbar Support
- Tachometer
- Leather Wrapped Steering Wheel

Options/Upgrades
   Leather Seating Surfaces $695.00
   Manual 5-Speed Transmission ($815.00)
   Advance Trac $1,625.00
   Anti-Lock Braking System (ABS)
   Perimeter Alarm System $125.00
   Power Moonroof $595.00
   Side Impact Air Bags $350.00
   Traction Control
Total MSRP is $21,420.00

A similarly equipped Escape (in my area) per kbb.com is $24,580. Not a $10,000 difference. Not even $5,000.

#117 of 130 by baggs32

Aug 21, 2003 (1:57 pm)

"And the fact is, you'd really have to work to buy a Civic for $1500 less than a CR-V. (And you'd be silly to do so.)"

My wife paid sticker for our Civic. She was a 22 year old fresh out of college and wanted a "cute" car NOW. She went by herself one night, without telling anyone, and got royally screwed (but she was happy). She's not the only one I know who did this either. It happens more than you think and yes it is "silly". Fortunately she's older and much wiser now. Mostly because she married me.

"Total MSRP is $21,420.00

A similarly equipped Escape (in my area) per kbb.com is $24,580. Not a $10,000 difference. Not even $5,000."

The previous example was a ZX5 premium not a wagon because the Honda example included a 5-door Civic and a CR-V/Element. The wagon is a different story altogether. I also went by sticker not kbb's version of Edmunds' "what I can get in my area" price, aka TMV. Speaking of that, why did you present the Focus' sticker price but then used the "what I can get in my area" price for the Escape?

You also added the $1600+ Advance Track to the Focus. Escape's have no stability control system yet.

You're still looking at a much larger price gap than that of the Honda's even if it isn't $10,000. Rebates will only make the difference grow because I think the Focus' rebate is almost double that of the Escape right now. We all know the Honda's do not have rebates to play around with.

The same logic that applies to the Focus/Escape applies to the P5/Tribute.

Honda people tend to stick with Honda's. If you go to a Honda store looking for a Honda you probably will cross shop a CR-V/Element with a 5-door Civic. They are closer in comparison than any other Honda's at this time. An Accord hatch or wagon would change thing dramatically.

When you go to a Ford store you will cross shop the Escape with a Focus wagon or Taurus wagon because those are all similar in price, features, etc.. The hatch versions of the Focus, ZX5 included, don't come into play because they are a lot cheaper to buy than the others mentioned above.

#118 of 130 Buyer loyalty by smasher

Aug 21, 2003 (2:31 pm)

"Honda people tend to stick with Honda's. If you go to a Honda store looking for a Honda you probably will cross shop a CR-V/Element with a 5-door Civic."

That's probably true. But I think people have a pretty good idea of what they're looking for by the time they visit a showroom, especially these days. Sporty 3- or 5-door? Small sedan? Compact SUV? Minivan? If they're a loyal Honda buyer, they may walk in and say, "I need a minivan. What have you got?"

I think VW people tend to be loyal, too (though their recent QC problems may be testing that loyalty). You may be tempted to cross-shop a Golf, Jetta and Touran (if it were available), or move up to a Passat. That's what my sister and brother-out-law did: after a long line of Sciroccos and Jettas (and a visit to the Dark Side with a Chevy Surburban), they dumped their SUV (yay!) and got a Passat wagon. They didn't even look at anything else.

Maybe in a couple of years people will come to their senses and return to passenger cars again. But until then, the dealers will continue to push the SUVs.

I don't get it myself. When I was looking at Imprezas, the dealer was trying to steer me toward the Forester. When I was looking at the Civic Si, the dealer tried to steer me toward the Element. What gives? Are they trying to move them off the lot (problems selling the things?), or are they getting better profit/incentives to move the big boxes?

#119 of 130 smasher by dinu01

Aug 21, 2003 (2:42 pm)

Regarding your last comment: YES!!!

Cars costing more bring in more revenue.

On a PRO a dealer has $2000 MAX to play with until INV, but on an NSX, Acura has $18.000 CAD!!!!

Inv: 124K
MSRP: 142K

Canadian prices...

Dinu

#120 of 130 If anybody cares . . . by #noname

Aug 21, 2003 (8:01 pm)

to actually read about a comparison:

Comparing a P5 to a 2003 Civic of any U.S. sold trim is definitely comparing apples to oranges to bananas. I recently went through the same shopping dilemma and eventually traded in my old �94 Civic Si 3 door for a P5 with an automatic, fully loaded. To put it simply, I outgrew the Civic and the P5 fit the bill for what I needed more than any other car.
Here�s why:

1. A compact sedan is just too small for my family of four and a similarly equipped midsize would have been at least $3,000 more expensive than a P5 with a little less than two inches or so in leg and shoulder room to show for it. Yes, I may have gotten a bigger engine with a midsize, but I really don�t need a 200HP rocket to crawl 25mph along jammed freeways on my daily commute.

2. As a parent, trunk space is a must. The carriage style stroller we push our youngest around in simply wouldn�t fit in the trunk of the Civic so it was out of the running early. The trunk in the P5 is bigger than even the touted trunk of the Toyota Camry (although much of that extra space is positioned vertically) and only a minivan can beat a five-door wagon in terms of versatility. Got stuck with bringing the coolers to the soccer game? No problem!

Daddy�s tip: Don�t even bother looking at a coupe body style if you have kids or plan to have them in the future, no matter how wonderful the car (Civic Si included). The back seats are pretty hostile environments when you need to install safety seats or extract sleeping children out of them. Taking the kids around in my old 3 door was always an ordeal.

3. I needed an automatic; my wife can�t/won�t drive a stick. Knowing this, I also knew that I couldn�t trust the horsepower ratings on cars that rely on variable valve timing (VVT) to achieve their maximum horsepower/torque levels like the Civic EX and Matrix/Vibe. It�s well known that ATs suck the performance out of all engines but they seemed to sap more out of the cars with VVT than those without. When I asked I found it has to do with the VVT needing higher revs to be effective and the AT up shifting before giving it a chance work thereby sapping nearly 15 to 20 HP out of the car. I�m not sure if this is correct but it does seem to make sense. My old Civic had a 1.6L VVT and if I up shifted when the revs were below 3,000 the thing couldn�t outrun the joggers along the side of the road.

Anyway, the 2003 Civic EX has a 1.7L engine, and the 2004 Matrix has a 1.8L. Both require that extra boost the VVT provides to achieve their 130HP ratings. The P5, and Ford Focus for that matter, don�t have VVT. They get their 130HP the old fashioned way, a bigger engine (2.0L for both). It�s something to consider if you need an AT.

4. Surprisingly reliable. I couldn�t believe the nearly complete absence of posts and TSB�s when I was researching the Prot�g� line and they�ve been around for five-six years. I was just as surprised as anybody to discover that Mazda makes pretty darn reliable cars despite being owned by Ford. (Sadly, their trucks and SUVs are another story.) How they could ignore this in their marketing campaigns is totally beyond me. What works against the company, however, definitely works for the buyer. Mazdas may be the best kept secret in the industry. Reliable, affordable, fun to drive cars plus the thousands of dollars in incentives they�re offering, it�s really hard to go wrong.

Things aren�t all roses with a P5, however. The biggest minus for buyers is that it is a lame duck model. Whatever�s left on your dealer�s lot is all you have to choose from because Mazda will be replacing it with a boxier model this fall. The P5 is also has much more road and wind noise at high speeds than either the Civic or Matrix, especially those equipped with a roof rack. When test driving it, make sure you get on the highway and drive it above 50 mph for a while to check it out for yourself. Finally, while you�re investigating the road noise, don�t forget to pay attention to the suspension. All P5�s have a very firm ride. It does soften up a bit after you break the car in, but it will never be something anybody considers soft.

Oh, just to add my two cents. I�m in the camp that believes that the �highest projected resale value� pitch that Honda and Toyota constantly make is bunk. The biggest thing they fail to mention is that the resale/trade in value you actually get is more dependent on your own sales/negotiating ability than on the actual condition of the car itself. They also tend tout the resale values of �clean� cars rather than the more realistic �average� ones. After someone puts 100K and adds a few dings and scratches on their car would you rate it �clean� and offer blue book for it? Don�t expect the dealers to do it either. Need more proof, check out the �Confessions of a Car Salesman� article on this site.

Forum Tools

Search Forums

Enter Keyword(s):

Browse by Category

Browse by Vehicle

Browse by Board

Browse by Topic

View All Topics

Learn More, Do More

Edmunds Community

Explore Edmunds