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Prices Paid: Buying & Leasing Experiences Toyota Avalon Prices Paid and Buying Experience
1392 messages, Last post on Sep 04, 2008 at 6:52 AM
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I spent about six weeks, off and on, working my deal. I took delivery of an black Avalon Limited in mid-January in the Raleigh-Durham-Chapel Hill-RTP area. No NAV, no dynamic cruise, no stability. The physical sticker reflected only the base price, destination, mats and a $25 fuel surcharge … the physical sticker had no fluff or right-hand side junk such as sealant/undercoating … all too common in the Southeast region, stickered as ToyoGuard (as if it came from the factory that way! … the SE region re-generates its own stickers) for $700. This car was ‘on the asphalt’ and it sat pretty much the way I wanted to buy one, other than the fact that it was not my first choice for exterior color. I added a number of PPOs (post-production options such as mudguards, sat radio, that sort of thing). Were the PPOs to appear on the sticker, the MSRP would be $35,873.35 (based on NADA.com and KBB.com). Add a $399 doc fee and $9.30 inspection fee, total $36,281.65. The invoice would be (w/out doc & inspection fees) $31,513.62. My initial offer was $31,500 “delivered price” (meaning to include all monies except TTT – sales Tax, Title and Tag transfer fees). That number tied to the number I had in place for a Limited sitting on a ultra-high-volume lot on the Maryland side of the DC beltway (when comparing apples-to-apples that is … I had to adjust out items it had … and really didn’t want … such as DCC and stability) … tied, that is, BEFORE the PPO items. What I DID forget, though I am reasonably certain about it, is that SET (SouthEast Toyota), the regional distributor (NC/SC/GA/AL/FL), skims about $700 or so off the top of each Limited sold by dealers in the region (see, for example, ddent01’s post on 11/28/2005 or toyodlr’s post on 12/30/2005). I neglected to add that number into my initial offer, having whipped up the number on the quick … the car was not on their on-line inventory (a deal was pending but gone stale) but when I spotted it on the lot after hours, I quickly … maybe a wee bit too quickly … worked up my number just before stepping onto the lot during business hours). So looking back, I would have intended a $32,200 initial offer ... and to hold pretty firm ground from there on up. Then again, leaving out the $700 wasn’t so bad an error, it doesn’t exactly hurt your position to lowball a bit. Notwithstanding my $700 omission, I walked into the dealership believing (based on all the numbers I had found on the web such as at this site and the numbers I was picking up working other dealers over the phone/email) that, in leaving out all monies for the PPO items … and considering the fact that PPOs usually have almost pure fluff in the pricing, that the initial offer was hitting just a wee bit south of the dealer’s walkaway price … and that that would force the true cost of the PPO items out into the open. It really only took about 20 minutes to get the handshake, most of that not in haggling, but rather from them working to pull PPO info from the parts dept and the service dept so they could make the counter-offer. While I waited for that, they fetched me a Starbucks. The final deal was $32,531.53 + $399.00 (doc) + $9.30 (inspection) = $32,939.83 delivered price (plus TTT) So I calculate that to be “invoice plus” $1,426.21 … or “invoice plus” 4.525%. Again, pretty durn close to toyodlr’s 12/30/2005 posted number for a Limited. I looked back again at other numbers posted to see how much money I might have left on the table. For instance, I did a rough comparison to tstrick320’s 01/29/2006 deal to get a feel for that. (His approach, btw, is often a very highly recommended car buying strategy in books, websites, etc. But I had also been taking other quotes by phone, email and by walk-ins prior to this walk-in, so I sort I wasn’t a ‘pure’ walk-in guy but took more of a “mixed” approach, in that sense.) And the comparison can’t be entirely exact … for instance, there are differences in destination charges, a sticker/invoice number for Blizzard White if he got that color … and if he tipped them in advance that he was considering the extended warranty … well, that has a good bit of profit built in (in the Southeast region you are apparently buying your warranty from SET, who not only gets a cut of the profit on the sale, but supplies parts at their wholesale cost and dictates the labor costs to the dealer). It is possible they gave up some of that possible profit in his car deal. (And hinting at loans, leases and such, btw, may also have tempted them to go tight on the car, again looking at the possibility of making some it up in the F&I office). But, based on the NADA website, it seems he gave about “invoice plus” $150 (even including the doc fee). That jives out with other numbers I found (see, for example, bobr321’s post on 12/27/2005.) Add on the SE region fee (again, I am reasonably certain that the SET fee is in excess of any such fees in other regions) and what I appear to have “left on the table” is about $575. But I did get some things FOR that $575: 1) The handshake came within 20 minutes. 2) The car was on the lot—no waiting. No driving to pick the car up hundreds of miles away. And no snafus when I get there. 3) Except for exterior color, I did not have to compromise in any way on the actual vehicle. (Again, the Maryland car had options I didn’t want … and when it came to “locating” something closer to what I wanted, they started dropping the ball.) 4) I was out the door, paperworked, car prepped, within two hours. Much of that time was spent queued up for the F&I man … who was doing brisk business. 5) I was given $300 over KBB “excellent” trade for my vehicle, without a moment’s haggle. Naturally, I would have liked to sold it someone on the street for more, but for a trade, this price seemed reasonable. (I am pretty sure the dealer swapped it … instead of running it down the lane … so, in that sense, he made little on the trade, though he’ll retail what he took in. The used fleet strategy at the lot seems to be 3 to 5 year old Toyotas, so I knew he wouldn’t want it and that there was no money for me to pick up out of that end of the deal. My car looked sharp with new tires, brakes, no dings, a nice sound system – easy to swap.) For all I knoew, introducing the trade into the any of the other deals I had been working elsewhere – which I had not attempted -- might well have deep-sixed any cost advantage. Here, the trade didn’t put any drag on the deal whatsoever. (Of course, your dealing/haggling will generally go better with no trade.) |
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6) They had clear and complete PPO knowledge and skills. Many of my other negotiations resulted in all sorts of confusion regarding the installation of the sat radio, for instance. (In the Southeast, if you see an Avalon on a dealer lot already loaded with sat radio, it is most likely a SET add-on done at their consolidation/”port” location (Commerce GA, outside Atlanta) … it’s probably NOT work that was done by the dealership. So a lot of dealerships are unfamiliar with how to do the work.) This dealership routinely does PPO work in their own “make-ready” environment—no farming it out to third parties … whose product/process knowledge (and probably quality) clearly varied considerably from one dealership to another. 7) The dealership is reasonably proximate. You’ll usually get treated a little bit better on service, parts, etc. if you go where you buy. You’ve given them some money already and they’re going to treat you better, in the hopes that you will stick with them and buy again. 8) This was a high-volume lot … but not a ULTRA-high-volume lot (The Maryland dealership is in the top ten in America in terms of volume), so it would be expected I would have to give up a wee bit more. The higher the volume, the less a dealership has to make “per car” to cover fixed costs. 9) My “invoice” included some dealership labor and effort (that being the PPO work), a bit more involved deal, a bit more cost for them … than an invoice number based totally on a “stocked” vehicle. 10) This dealership seems to be extremely customer & customer-service oriented. In a way, almost like a Saturn lot sort of culture. There’s not a sweat box on the property. I never saw a four-box pad laying anywhere. And come service time, it should turn out that it was advantageous to have bought there. 11) I did get some minor concessions regarding future service/business when I objected to the doc fee (that I originally intended to be included in my offer number). 12) As I said, I raised some minor objections more than once after the handshake. At some dealerships, doing so would be a deal-breaker (the more work to close the deal, the higher the price). The key man stepped into the deal in each time, addressed/resolved the objection and the deal moved forward. I think it is fair to say that, from the dealer’s perspective, having to go through the basic motions of pushing a trade out the door and doing a swap (#5), having to make a wee bit more per car (#8) and having to use up some of the dealership’s staff, direct labor and other resources toward the PPOs (#9) … well all that accounts for a lot of that $575. And the number sort of jives out with the Maryland lot as well. That was a fixed price, no haggle dealership similar to Carmax, Saturn, etc. Generally it seemed they wanted invoice plus $700 for any Limited sitting on the lot plus $99 doc fee, delivered/OTD price. Conventional wisdom is that customers pay a premium for the convenience of not haggling -- that the best haggle price will be a better price. So the difference between tstrick320’s deal and the Maryland price ($799-$150=$649) could be seen as the “convenience” cost for not haggling. (While this seems, at first blush, to be cheaper than my final deal, the fact is that when we got into “locating” my car, the PPO pricing and such the difference between the Maryland deal and the deal I DID DO seemed to shrink to almost nothing). AND all of my numbers & assumptions seem to tie right up to the toyodlr’s 12/30/2005 post as well (Just as he said, I even had trouble finding the first exterior color choice, Blizzard/Pearl White in the config. I wanted.) So, what I get out of all this that … to me … my experience & numbers confirm tstrick320’s strategy did cut to the bone, he found the dealer’s walkaway price … about invoice plus $150 (or so) for a Limited … IF you hit a ultra-high-volume dealership outside the SouthEast region. If you are in the Southeast region, the dealer’s walkaway price at a ultra-high-volume lot (such as Atlanta Toyota) is probably closer to invoice plus $850. (Again, just as toyodlr’s 12/30/2005 post suggests.) I can certainly recommend, of course, the dealership where I bought, Marc Jacobson Toyota, not only for (what I think to be) a good, quick deal, but also for the product knowledge and the general straight-forward, customer-orientation that seems to permeate the property (… versus any wiggly, what’ll ya gimme tactics). That culture seems to carry over into service, parts, and so on. They, just in September, opened this high-volume lot and they are trying to quickly steal the pole position as the area’s high-volume dealer … meaning they are, at this moment, apparently much more ready to deal than other lots in the immediate RDU area. It’s not fixed pricing, but in many other ways, I picked up a very positive, Saturn-lot-like vibe off of the place. The Maryland dealership is Fitzgerald Auto Mall, just off the Beltway. My sense of it is that IF * you are willing to pick from what is on the lot as it sits, and * you have financing in place, no trade, and * you are willing to cut a deal, take delivery and head out the door immediately, and * you are willing to pay a little bit at a fixed pricing lot since you are not a strong haggler … then this might be a very, very good place for you to buy a car. (Otherwise, you’re going to find it not so different from other well-worked deals.) Fitz (as well as Atlanta Toyota) is listed at the Toyota website (under the dealer locator menu choice) as having the President’s Cabinet Award (not JUST the President’s Award) … for being among the top 60 US dealerships in volume and also being among the top 12 based on the customer Sales Satisfaction Survey. Based on past deal attempts over the years (both on the lot and off) as well as this attempt, I do understand the reservations some expressed on this board about Atlanta Toyota … the ultra-high-volume dealers like Atlanta Toyota are typically going to offer a good price … but if the deal is for something not on the lot, not a immediate close, or if it become labor-intensive or time-intensive, well, they are not going to be very supportive. They usually have “qualified” (ready-and-able-to-buy) customers queued up on the asphalt all day long … so why bother? They niche themselves more as a lower-cost, higher-volume new car lot … much more so than as a fuller, customer-supportive, total experience/ownership dealership. A emphasis on a “production-line approach” to new car sales.
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And the Fitz experience confirmed it -- when the deal got messier, so to speak – locating the car, PPOs, hinting at a trade, etc. -- the sales force (er, the “consultants”) lost interest and the deal started to unravel. But if you are willing to buy a car under the conditions I listed above then I expect you will be pretty “satisfied” by a dealership on the “Cabinet” list. At minimum, consider getting a quote from them … it is probably not going to get too awfully much cheaper than what those lots will offer via phone/email on a cash basis. I called a number of them (across the US, not identifying my location) to help me get a fix on what the initial offer and dealer walkaway price might ought to be. They were good numbers for a place to start figuring from. Here’s the Cabinet’s List from the Toyota website, in ranked order: * Longo Toyota -- El Monte CA (LA metro area) * Toyota of Riverside -- Riverside CA (LA metro area) * Molle Toyota -- Kansas City KS * Ft. Myers Toyota -- Ft. Myers FL (Naples / Southwest Coast area) * Atlanta Toyota -- Duluth GA * Miller Toyota -- Manassas VA (DC metro area) * Beaman Toyota -- Nashville TN * Toyota of Puyallup -- Puyallup WA (Seattle-Tacoma metro area) * Libertyville Toyota -- Libertyville IL (North Chicagoland) * Maroone Toyota -- Davie FL (Ft. Lauderdale/Miami metro area) * Fitzgerald's Lakeforest Toyota -- Gaithersburg, MD (DC metro area) * Toyota of San Bernardino -- San Bernardino CA (LA metro area) I also took a stab at a number of the smaller, more rural dealerships in the area (on and off lot), but, generally speaking, I ran into a lot of highballing, sweatboxing, “come on down,” “bait and switch” attempts (there is a gob of markup/margin in the Southeast region Special Edition vehicle and one dealer tried to switch me into it at delivery … I walked) … and other such tactics that just wasted a lot of my time. So, looking back, I would recommend following tstrick320’s distance-bidding approach … after first checking ultra-high volume lots to make sure you have an idea of where the low bid ought be … and be sure to include some high and ultra-high volume dealerships if possible. Expect the best Limited deal to be about invoice plus $150 … unless it is the SE region, in which case it would be closer to invoice plus $850. If it is not an ultra-high volume lot … and the deal becomes more than a quick cash turnover (as with mine) your going to end up closer to invoice plus $1400 … the number toyodlr’s post suggests. Some other advice: If you cut a deal off-lot, and they don’t stick to the deal when you hit the lot, save yourself some time and frustration and just walk—the deal you thought you had was never there. Also, be clear that you are negotiating total delivered/OTD price, less only TTT, throughout your phoning/emailing/dealing/negotiating. It IS possible I left some money on the table along the way [Perhaps I might have priced in the SET fee when it was already built in elsewhere (though I think not, based on the digging I did) … or perhaps I shouldn’t be letting the dealer “off the hook” for the last $575 so easily and logically.] But I ended up with a dealership that could handle the PPOs hassle-free, and if I ended up with a dealership that I can trust in day-to-day dealings, that knows what it is doing in the shop and that remains customer-oriented throughout the ownership experience … well, it’s probably still a very good deal … for me. If you follow tstrick320’s distance bidding approach, and do some homework in advance to double-check the low bidder, you’ll probably “flush out of the brush” any extra monies I might have left behind and get your best deal. I dumped a lot of info in this post ... some of it took me a while to discover during the dealing ... in the hope that it shortens your learning curve and snags you your best deal. Happy hunting !! |
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Replying to: drquality (Feb 04, 2006 1:43 pm) I guess many customers take the bribe which explains why Atlanta Toyota are "among the top 12 based on the customer Sales Satisfaction Survey." I had a problem with my car after picking it up, but the salesman and sales manager refused to return my repeated phone calls or emails. The salesman did have the nerve to call me a month later to complain about my less than complimentary, but factual response to Toyota's Sales Satisfaction Survey! Those President Awards are worth nothing. Every dealer posts "Dealership of The Year" award plaques for the past 20 years all over their showrooms. I know of 2 other people who had a negative experience with these guys. Atlanta Toyota get a zero out of ten from me.  I previously bought 2 Toyotas from Sandy Springs Toyota and they were professional and courteous all the way. The salesman followed up after each sale and attended to a couple of post-sales issues without complaint. Unfortunately they didn't have the car I wanted when I was shopping for the Avalon.
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When making a purchase, every deal should be at invoice or below. Why? Every Avalon gets $$ holdback that enables the dealer to make money even below invoice and this DOES not count any additional incentives ie dealer volume, end of month/quarter promotions. One example is an XLS 'base' model: MSRP= $34,395 Base Invoice= $30,337 Real Dealer Invoice = $29,661 (including a holdback of $676) Knowledge is power! 
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Replying to: jcooper1 (Feb 02, 2006 7:50 am) That was some good information and good numbers. With a price difference of $4,450.00 (XLS vs. XL) I'm starting to think it might be wise to loose the "S" on the trunk. I'm not sure if there is enough real difference between the two to justify the cost difference...but I guess it's an individual thing. It gives me something to think about. |
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About 2 weeks ago I purchased the above car with the following: Rear spoiler (with LED light) Color matched mud guards Carpet Floor mats/Trunk/Cargo mats All season floor mats Toyoguard plus protection plan (SE region only) Invoice on this car is $32,306.90 (not to include the all season mats).....I purchased it for 32,000.00 before tax and tag. Plus since I am active duty military I got an additional $500 rebate........so all in all not a bad deal. They had to do a search and find the white color with ivory interior we wanted....had to wait a week.....no additional charge for this by the way.....if they try to charge you for this......tell them that's bs...... My purchase was made in Tampa.....and to add what the other poster stated is that SE Toyota does add in an additional charge on their invoice for these cars.....I think that is complete BS, BUT if you want a Toyota in this part of the country be prepared to pay it.....try and get below invoice like I did....$300 below invoice.....plus I got an additional $500 off for being active duty military.....so these deals are out there.....just do your homework.....come up with a REALISTIC price before going to the dealership......stick to your guns.....and everything will work out.....BUT be prepared to walk if you don't get what you want.....within reason of course..... Happy Motoring!!
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If there is anyone in the state of Texas that has bought, or is buying, an Avalon in the ball park of invoice I would appreciate a response to this post. I have been doing the research, mainly on this site and have seen many buying experiences that have been pleasant, at invoice and on very rare occasions, below invoice. I have not seen this in Texas and with 74 Toyota dealers in this state you would think it's at least possible. I've done the same many others on this site have done: e-mailed dealers (not all 74 of course) and the ones that require a phone number I avoid. I don't need that headache right now and I don't understand why some dealers require a phone number, but I suspect it's so they can do the lip action (deception) to get you in without having to back it up (hard copy). If I were to find such a deal I would jump on it like a chicken on a June bug and would be willing to drive anywhere in the Lone Star state to pick it up (with the exception of the panhandle). It's time for a little vacation anyway. One other note: I noticed that in most cases when the Avalon was bought at invoice it was from high volume dealers. Does anyone know how to determine if a dealership is high volume? Thanks in advance for any response. |
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Replying to: mldj98 (Feb 06, 2006 5:08 am) Got a question for ya. Did you make a mistake on the invoice of 32,306.90 or did the spoiler and toyoguard plus combined invoice at $1,450.90?
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Replying to: easttexas (Feb 07, 2006 12:21 pm) I think the key to getting a response is to be very clear about what you want and what you are going to do. The dealers are going to focus their energy on "live" prospects. Traditionally, that's a warm, emotionally charged body on the lot. Doing this long distance requires some extra effort to convince them you're for real and that they should take the time to respond. Get your financing lined up so that you can ask for, and close on, a cash deal. Be ready to purchase the car NOW. Be willing to wait for a factory order. Make it clear you will only consider written quotes. Include ALL of your contact information -- you want these people to respond, make it easy for them. And, yes, I know you'll get calls from high-pressure salesmen who want just want you to "come in to talk" (refer to warm, emotional body above). Tell them you'll call them back just as soon as you get their quote by FAX. Buying a car this way takes some work but it saved me a bundle. You won't do this every day so you can afford to spend some time on it. Good luck! |
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