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Prices Paid: Buying & Leasing Experiences Acura TL Prices Paid and Buying Experience
10989 messages, Last post on Dec 04, 2009 at 2:03 PM
You are in the Prices Paid: Buying & Leasing Experiences Forum. Your Hosts are car_man & kyfdx
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Replying to: 23109vc (Jul 15, 2009 10:40 pm) took me a while to read all that! Yeah it seems your just as frustrated how these acura dealers are pricing these 08 models, compared to what they sold for new. I mean, it actually makes me furious, and when you seriously call them out on it, they know your well informed, and they laugh at you/mock you, then tell you no way...knowing some innocent people come in, and buy it at a drastic markup. true story, i was at a acura dealer, last yr, getting my oil change done, and there was a young gentleman, super nice guy, and the salesman comes to him saying..."manager wants to move some cars, ill take 500 off the sticker!!" he was like oh is that the best you can do?, salesman says yes...he goes, ok ill take it! i felt horrible for this kid, I very politely pulled him aside, and said, i dont want to meddle, but there is a 3k rebate alone, you should be getting this car for atleast 5k off! he was shocked, and i told him about edmunds, acurazine, he was absolutely clueless that such sites existed. I realized there really are so many people out there, that just dont know about rebates/websites etc. Needless to say, he left the dealer, after he confronted the salesman about it, salesman DENIED such rebates existing, I pulled out my phone, showed edmunds website on it....salesman turned red, manager walked away........well i'm prolly not welcome at that dealer ever again!! (another couple was outside looking at the TL as i was leaving, i told them, pay 6k off sticker, they too had no clue on sale...i only wonder what happened to them! As for the new TL's....i honestly dont know of the best deals, but i think ive seen people mention lease rates around high 400's. I think trying to get a used TL at a bargain is tough, knowing the dealer tactics. TL is one car, id buy/lease new.....buy an extended warranty....run it to the ground, or sell it privately on my own once i get sick of it. i know what you mean about porsche, ive been a lifelong benz owner, wanted to get the SL550 last summer, but with the update they did, dealer only would take 3k off, and i Didn't want the 08 at a bargain rate, just looked age with the older face and interior. So i treated myself to a Porsche 911 carrera cabriolet....msrp 100k, i bought it for 77k. TOO good to pass up! porsche dealer was so desperate to get rid of it, brand new, with 12miles on it. i have to say, after the porsche, every car seems to drive like a boat. 
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Replying to: kyfdx (Jul 14, 2009 4:28 pm) |
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Replying to: 23109vc (Jul 15, 2009 10:40 pm) Rob |
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vchad- yeah, exactly. i have given some dealers and same story - I tell thema bout my car search from last year, tell them the quotes I rec'd, then ask how they can ask so much for it used. the usual statement is that there were "incentives" back then that they don't have now and that they are "too deep into" these new ones...blah blah..so they basically claim that they sold them cheap, but had to buy them back at a high price... it's all BS if you ask me. they just know that there are dumb buyers who will pay what they want and they can take advantage of them. i'm torn between just leasing or buying used. I had kind of wanted to grab a used 08. this is going to be our second household car - i'll use it to DD to work, and we will use it as backup to our MDX. i was planning on buying one with super low miles, like 10-15k and then jus thang onto it until it's paid off and then some. but if they are asking so much for them, it makes less and less sense to buy a used one. buying a used TL CPO for $28k seems like less of a good deal than if it was 23-24k.... when you crunch out the numbers.... leasing vs buying...the lease can actually come out bettter. i' taking into account that on the purchase, I'll hae the car for say 6-7 years..and I figure in what I willlikely have to spend to maintain / upkeep the car and also I have tried to calculate a reasonalbe net value once the car is paid off and I want to sell it - to take into consideration that I can recoup money by selling it. figure you buy a CPO 08 TL base w/nav and get them down to $27k. that might be doable. sounds like a high price to me, ,but let's say I buy that. say I put down $5000 and finance the rest for 60 months. loan calcs say that I pay $470/month for the next 60 months to buy this TL. total payments, incuding my $5k down = I'm spending roughly $33,000 total. but then if you figure i drive it 10-15k/year...at the end of my 5 year loan, I've added 50-75k on it. so if it had 15k when I buy it, ,then the car has 65k - 80k when paid off. so it should run easily another 2-3 years trouble free?? so I get 2-3 years of no payments, but do have to do repairs. i'm guessing there will be at least one brake job in there, timing belt toward the 100k point, couple sets of tires, and othe rmisc little "problems' that will be non warranty items that will require repair visits...lets say for the sake of argument that all this upkeeep adds up to 3-4k over the life of ownershp..maybe 5k if i'm unlucky? at the point when ia am totally sick of the car after driiving it for 8 years and I go to sell it, the car will be rouhgly 10 MY old...with 120k miles..i am guesstimating it will e worth maybe $5000. so you wash out the costs of upkeep by selling it..and in the end it cost me jus hte monthly payments.. which would be $33k over 8 years. if i could drive it that long. assuming I got sick of it and sold it in 6 years, i might make a couple grand more off the sale...and pocket a bit more in "net" value on the car at the end.. $33,000 / 8 yrs = $350/month. so the net overall cost of tha tcar is 350/month assuming I keep it 8 years. $33000 / 6 years (add $2k in resale value) = $430/month. to lease a new TL is going to be *roughly* 3000 down and 450month tax included. so total cost over 36 months is 450x 36 +3000 = $19200 for 36 months. to compare to the six year ownershp scenario, just double the lease and you get 6 year lease costs of 19200 x 2 = 38400. that's $533/month. so it's still mmore expensive to lease than to buy.. by maybe 75/month. then you factor in the intangibles, like would you raather have a new car every three years vs same one for 6 yrs... etc etc. if i could get them to budge on the pricing of the 08 and get it closer to or udner $25k it makes the buy numbers even sweeter... i could live with an 08, but as the numbers get too close, the natural urge is to say screw it and go for the newer car if the costs are not too mjch more.. am i totally screwing my analysis up? vchad - what do you think? |
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I am paying 476.00 per month. ZERO CAP COST (no $3000.00 down or any nonsense) TL 2009 with TECH. Try your numbers with that. Probably at year 6 or so you might be ahead of the game, it depends. If at the end of 4-5 years you trade in the car I think that you will be behind the game. Dealers lov tradeins as they work up all sorts of numbers and really screw you. If after 5-6 years you sell the car yourself, you may be ahead of the game. Try it with my numbers. Rob |
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ok Robert..using YOUR numbers and my 8.75% tax rate... $476/month + 8.75% tax = monthly payment of $517.65. Over the course of 36 months, that would cost me a total of----- $18,635. If I BUY a 2008 CPO TL w/nav or a Type S and get it for around $28000, and I finance over 72 months, at 5.5% - the total amount i pay over the life of the loan, will be about $35,760. asssuming ZERO down payment, the monthly is about $504. just baout the same as the cost of a lease of an 09 TL w/tech. If you try to equate the 3 yr lease to the cost of a 6 yr loan, I just double the cost of the 36 months lease, as if I leased TWO cars back to back - which would be 72 months. the lease costs doubled are $37,270. $37,270 - $35,760 = $1510. so basically, if you only consider the costs over the first 6 years, the lease only costs an extra $1500. spread across teh 6 years, that only $251/year, or $20/month. When the comparison is between an 08 and 09 - the $20/month is totally worth it. Here is where the buy vs lease gets tricky. When you lease - you turn the car back in and it's gone. you have nothing left. If I buy the 08, after 72 months, I own the car and it has some value. albeit, in 72 months from now, a CPO 2008 TL will not be worth a ton, but it will be worth something, and given that I will drive about 12-15k/year, and assumign I buy a car with 15k miles on the odometer - at the end of my loan the car iwll have roughly a max of 100k miles or so. that will be in year 2015. So what will a 2008 TL with 100k miles be worth in 2015??? my guess..anywhere from $5-10k. if you assume that in 2015, a 2008 TL will be about 8 model years old...then one big question is to assess what that car will be worth 6 years down the road, when my loan is paid off. to truly compare a lease to buy you have to factor in that at the end of the lease you won NOTHING and at the end of a purchase you OWN the car and unless you destroy the car and it implodes - that car has a net VALUE. you could then sell it and pocket tha t money, thereby reducing the cost of the purchase overall. to get an idea what an 08 TL might be worth in 2015, the best analysis I could come up with is to look at what a 8 model year old TL is worth now in 2009 with siilar mileage... so look at a 2002 TL w/100k miles. according to cars.com, the average asking price on a car like that is $8000-9000. that's actually a lot higher than I had expected. so if I BUY - at the end of my purchase, that used 2008 TL is supposedly going to be worth let's say $8500. another facotr you have to consider is that on a lease you typically pay for ZERO repairs. you only pay for the upkeep/maintenance. oil changes and stuff. maybe you might have to do brake pads or a set of tires..but you basically escape from the lease w/out havig to fix anything. the car is under warranty the entire time you have it, and you only pay for consumables that you would have to pay for on any car..new or used. they all use gas, tires, oil, brakes..so those costs are consistent regardless of whether you buy or lease. BUT, if you buy a CPO used car with 15k on it, and then you drive it up to 100k, you are probably going to have to fix something. the CPO warranty will run out on most stuff at about 62k miles. you have a powertrain up to 100k..so the big big ticket stuff like motor/tranny is covered. but figure you have the same brakes, tires, and then maye you get something like a leaky radiator, or a button that breaks, or a water pump that fails, or a some computer sensor that goes out... that stuff might not be under warranty, and from 62k - 100k you foot the bill for that stuff. those are costs the guy who is leasing never pays. so another big question, factor to estimate is what will it cost for THAT stuff on teh purchase? hard to say. in general, i would expect those coss to be fairly low as the TL is a pretty reliable car, and since the big big ticket stuff is covered under a CPO warranty, i wouldn't get hit with a tranny rebuilt or blown motor...only the smaller stuff. assumign you don't have a lemon....you might have say... $1000-3000 max in these costs over the life of the loan. this is not including oil changes, tires, brakes..i'm thiking of actual repair visits where you have ot fix something that isn't a warranty item..a water pump, an alternator...crap like that. i honestly think the 3000 figure is kind of high...lets say $2000 as a guesstimate. So leasing has total costs of $37270. (TWO 36 month leases back to back) purchase a CPO 2008. total finance costs over 72mo = $37,270. assume an extra $2500 in long term upkeep, but a "residual value" at the end of myloan of about $8500. So $37,270 + $2500 - $8500 = $31,270. so assumig you paid the car off and once it wqs paid off you sold it, and pocketed the money, and assumig my figures are right, your net monthly car costs average out to : lease - $517 purchase - $434. difference of $82/month. the million dollar question si whether it is worth an extra $82 a month, to always have a car that is never mor ethan a few years old, under warranty, and new. you'd pay more, but you'd get to go through TWO newer cars, instead of driving one "old" car the whole time. depends on how much you like cars. so you can see that really, buying a clean CPO car, and even with normal maintenance, should overall cost less in the long run, as the car has a net value at the end that actually reduces your effective "cost". BUT, that $8500 "equity" isn't cash..it's tied up in the car..so if you never sell it you don't see that money. i gues the alternative is that you DON'T sell it, and then for the next THREE years you DRIVe it for free, and only incur another $2500-3000 in costs to repair it. so if you go out to 9 years...then you have a whopping $1000/year in costs. while the guy leasing has to incur yet another huge set of costs to lease yet another car.. so over 9 years.. the leasing guy pays $55,905 over 9 years. the guy who buys pays $42,770.... the savings start to accelerate the longer you keep/drive the old paid off car. now here is the real questio - do you REALLY want to drive that 2008 CPO TL for the next NINE years. hell no. there are other intantigl efactors you cant' put a dollar value on. how about the peace of mind of havin ga brand new car that will not break down and leave you stranded? how about the fun of havin ga new car? newer technology? new/updated safety items? these factors all could be reduced to some dollar figure...but it's very subjective. some people who are NTO car people, honestly could care less about how they get from point A to B and the buy it an dkeep it 10 years works for them b/c it's the cheapest possible way to do it. in fact, they dont drive a TL, they drive a basic 4 cyl accord iwth cloth and no nav. if you purely look at the short term costs - over 36 months... Assuming ZERO d |
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i really wrote a long thred..so long it deleted some of my post!! sorry guys. i got carried away.. bottom line - i think leasing a new 09 is a smarter move than buying a used CPO 08. unelss the dealers really reduce what they are asking for on teh 08s... right now, most dealers are asking and won't budge of asking for about $27-28k for a CPO 08 base w/nav. at that price, it makes more sense to lease a new 09. as the price goes down and the spread between new/used increases..the CPO might be a better move..but in the short term - 36-60 months out, leasing is the way to go.
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Replying to: 23109vc (Jul 17, 2009 10:27 am) good luck Rob |
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Robert- I think you're right in that the CPO cars are not necessarily any better than a private party car...in terms of quality. I'm sure some CPO cars are trashed and some are pristine. I've seen some that looked and drove as if they were actually new, and others that were clean...but n ot *that* clean... if you know what I mean. the one thing you do get from CPO is the extension of the warranty. you get another year and 12k on top of the existing factory warranty, and they extend the powertrain warranty from 6 yr / 70k to 7yr, 100k. so you get a little bit more in terms of warranty. if you found a used 08 with low miles, you'd have as much or more warranty coverage as the new car... you are right about the dealers trying to jack up the used car prices. i almost wonder if b/c the market is so depressed,they are trying to make bigger profits on teh used cars...the new cars pricing is harder to manipulate wiht so many people hitting the web and verifying the cash back incentives, invoice pricing, etc... butg on a used car, you never know how cheap they really got it for...so they could be really j acking up the price and you'll never know... I do know what the 08s sold for in the end of 08. the base w/nav sold for about $29-30k and the TL-S sold for $31,500-32000. i see used 08s with 10-20k miles and the asking price is $34k....nuts. they always give me the same line..in 2008 there were incentivs, now we don't have those... i try to counter with "yeah, but once the cars start selling NEW for $32k, incentives or NOT, the price has come down. whenever a dealer puts cash on the car, it lowers the price/value b/c someoen else bought it for less". they just repear the incentives thing... one guy actually told me they have become liek collectors items and have gone UP in value...yeah...SUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUURE.... the TL-S is a collector car!!! ha! tough decision on what to do. buy used or go lease new. each has it's pros/cons. thansk for all the feedback Robert. how you likin' that new TL??? did you ever consider going for the AWD model?
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Replying to: 23109vc (Jul 17, 2009 12:36 pm) |
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