Last post on Feb 26, 2013 at 5:40 AM
You are in the Subaru Legacy & Outback
What is this discussion about?
Subaru, Subaru Legacy, Subaru Outback, Sedan, Wagon
Your Community Leaders are ateixeira and rsholland.
#1009 of 10833 Re: [ateixeira #1000]
Apr 14, 2004 (1:06 pm)
The most recent automotive news comments that the new legacy and OB are being pushed upscale and states that the price increases are higher than normal. According to a SOA spokesperson the higher prices are because of improved styling (huh??) and new features. ABS, EBD, and high quality interiors are standard--(I don't get the last one)! SOA says that Subaru carries a $1500 incentive cost. SOA wants to compete against AUDI but admits it will take several years. Also, SOA wants Legacy to be a premium brand but not a luxury brand. Well there you have it from SOA via Automotive News...greater than normal price increase and hoping to hit 90,000 units in 2004. I still believe they are about $1500 above where they need to be on MSRP across the board. Now if there is real quality, fit and finish, and NVH improvements then they should have a 4 year BTB warranty to reflect the move up and really compete in the premium brand. That extra year might entice fence sitters. Also, SOA is "resisting" offering DVD and navigation on Legacys and OB (to keep cost down?) but will offer it on the new SUV.
#1010 of 10833 taoman/zoomer
Apr 14, 2004 (1:43 pm)
taoman- Many thanks! I have book marked the site and will check it out when I have a few more seconds.
zoomer1- I think you're wrong with respect to pricing. If you look at the rest of the midsize market- the Legacy competes well on price when you factor in its AWD.
Example-An Accord EX with side airbags and curtains is $23,320. Granted, that model gives you a moonroof, power seat, and 6 disc in dash CD changer, but a Legacy 2.5i with auto and side airbags/curtians is expected to be about $22,600. So for a savings of 7xx dollars, you get AWD but give up a couple of conveniences. Seems fair to me, and I'm sure SOA will offer an options package or two for the 2.5i and GT models- because there's a decent gap in features and price to the 2.5 Limited and GT Limited models.
#1011 of 10833 Re: taoman/zoomer [alpha01 #1010]
Apr 14, 2004 (2:31 pm)
Since it is MY opinion it is not wrong but you may disagree with it. No sweat.
First, Honda Accord EX with side airbags and curtains is $22k with M/T and $22.8 with AT($1,320 and $520 less). That is a considerable difference and could be significant to consumers.
Second, the Accord is a larger car with greater height, width, length, and overall interiro space. Under the EPA/DOT class definition the Honda is a true Midsize while the Legacy qualifies as a Compact so I would disagree with your statement that they both qualify as Midsize. You may disagree with the EPA and DOT on the car's classification as it currently stands but that is what the classification is.
Third, I agree that AWD is a value proposition and as such one should pay for it. My read of the industry magazines including trade specific literature shows that when it comes to AWD versus price and reputation...consumers in general favor price over features above and beyond the norm (generally considered as p/s, p/w, AT, ABS, Airbags, AC, power seats, remote fuel and trunk). So, SOA is competing with brands who push out 150k to 280k units that can be price elastic. SOA needs to position themselves at a price that is marginally higher but not so high as to create a really large price difference.
To take your example the Accord model you cite is priced lower than the GT Sedan by almost $3000 and it has several features that are optional on the Subaru (AWD excepted). The L model of the Subaru is $2000 less than the Accord model you use as an example and has an even greater lack of standard features (Intellichoice and Edmunds used for comparos).
If you are an SOA afficionado you will believe that AWD is worth the extra money--we are a small group in the compact segment (80,000 units last year). So, if you are AWD neutral and price sensitive that is a tough sell. If you AWD averse then the proposition is a non-starter as the Accord competes with or beats the Subaru on NCAP, Reliability, Depreciation, Resale, and we have already discussed dimensions.
It is easy for SOA to get lost in the compact crowd. Midsize segment sold well over 1 million units. To wit, last year SOA had a LOSS of $28.5 million.
My point is that AWD just by itself won't sell Legacies any more. More cars will have AWD and since larger companies can amortize the costs over several hundred thousand units they can eat the increases taking the AWD cache away from SOA. By pricing the cars 4% or higher for 2005, depending on models, while others introduce AWD on larger cars that are priced similarly is a risky gamble for SOA.
#1012 of 10833 Accord Pricing
Apr 14, 2004 (3:03 pm)
First, according to Honda's website AND Carsdirect.com
2004 Accord EX Auto w/ std Side Airbags and optional Side Curtains plus dest:
Anticipated Legacy 2.5i Auto w/ Side Airbags and Curtains and dest.
(Perhaps youre numbers dont include destination charge?)
Second, thats fine the EPA/DOT classify the Accord as a Mid-size and the Legacy a compact. The fact of the matter is that they are competitors, you will see them in comparison tests against each other, and many consumers (I'm NOT saying ALL) WILL cross-shop the two (as my parents will in October). If you want to read that as meaning I disagree with the EPA/DOT classification that's fine.
Third, "To take your example the Accord model you cite is priced lower than the GT Sedan by almost $3000 and it has several features that are optional on the Subaru (AWD excepted). The L model of the Subaru is $2000 less than the Accord model you use as an example and has an even greater lack of standard features (Intellichoice and Edmunds used for comparos)."
What model year Legacy are you even talking about? Are you even talking about 2005? If so, there's no L model (that Im aware of anyway), and the GTs will have 250 hp, so why are you comparing a 160hp Accord to them, and then citing the substantial price difference? Very bizarre comparison.
#1013 of 10833 Re: Accord Pricing [alpha01 #1012]
Apr 14, 2004 (4:28 pm)
I believe he's talking about the EX V6 model. It's showing up in the papers where I live for $24K. It's going to be hard for a GT Limited to compare to that price. The EX has side curtain air bags, leather heated seats, 6 disc changer in dash also. I'm trying to hold out for the Legacy GT Limited myself but Subaru isn't making the wait easy. I hope they don't price themselves out of the mix. Acura is offering AWD in their new RL. Does anyone think this won't trickle down to the TSX and Accord. I think it will.
Apr 14, 2004 (4:38 pm)
This talk about an astronomical price jump on the 2005 Legacy is starting to get tiresome.Why give yourself an ulcer over that which you cannot control?
In other world markets where the new legacy is already on sale there was a minimal price increase, why would Subaru shoot themselves in the foot by pricing themselves out of the market here?
#1015 of 10833 Re: Geez [hondafriek #1014]
Apr 14, 2004 (5:45 pm)
Good point. I, for one, will test drive the new Legacy and bounce it against the VW 4Motion, G35x, Pacifica, and even Highlander Hybrid. I really hope SOA has done a good job with the interior. Is there any information on whether navigation is completely out for the sedans? Automotive news implied so but I wasn't sure if it was definite.
Apr 14, 2004 (6:19 pm)
how the price increase is THAT substantial, given the upgrades...
#1017 of 10833 Re: Geez [hondafriek #1014] [zoomer1 #1015]
Apr 14, 2004 (7:48 pm)
All signs point to no navigation system initially. There have been some rumors of navi availability at the end of the year.
Apr 14, 2004 (8:01 pm)
I bet it will be a separate '06 model, and not an option. In Europe it's sold as a GTn. I bet it will be packaged here in North America the same way; all Legacys and Outbacks with nav will be ID'ed with an "n" classification.
I also bet we'll get the Legacy H-6 w/6-speed for '06. Reportedly that car will go on sale in Europe, Oz & NZ in the fall. I bet we'll be next.
Bottom line: I think for MY06 SOA will flush out the Legacy & Outback with all the MIA items we had hoped for for MY05.