Last post on May 30, 2007 at 9:05 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
BMW 3 Series, BMW 5 Series, BMW 7 Series
#321 of 729 Re: New 545 owner [rich545]
Jul 20, 2004 (2:01 pm)
I do agree that likes and dislikes are very subjective. However there is almost a universal consensus that this car is went a bit too far.
I am not a person with strong dislikes; I pretty much find something good in anything. However, I have tried my best to get to like the styling of the E60. Whenever I see an E60 on the road I hover around it; whenever I see one around the parking lot I circle around it. The car simply lacks harmony.
It must be a great car to drive, especially with the new active suspension which makes the curves easier on the passengers. However, the exterior styling just not cut it.
Car and Driver, self-acknowledged Bimmer fanatics have to say the following about the new 5ers; You can't miss the new 5-series. (We just wish we didn't miss the old one so much.)
The sales figure for the new model year should have been out of the roof. After all it was a complete redesign after almost 7 years and coming at a time when the economy had finally turned the corner and people higher up in the ranks had a good year. 2003 model year, with the Iraq war and all was not really setting the high water mark either. On an year to date comparison, 18,568 E39s were sold last year vs 19,070 E60s this year; in May to May comparison the E39 actually outsold the E60 (4491 vs 4336). So even with weak comparisons, the car is not exactly a block-buster, barely keeping pace with the sales of a 7 year old model in an economy in the dumps.
Also keep in mind that a lot of folks who leased their 5ers during the boom period of 2000-2001 would have been looking to upgrade the cars in this model year. There was a lot of pent up demand for people waiting for the new 5 series. Unfortunately, a lot of these buyers are looking elsewhere or are trying to get a low mileage E39 (just look at the resale values of the 2003 E39s).
I envy you since you are driving a car with one of the best driving experiences. However, this cars styling will be a tough sell; and will remain so for in the future. I fully expect BMW to tweak the styling in the 2006 model year. I think the angled lights will be the one feature that will be strongly diminished.
Jul 20, 2004 (9:03 pm)
true the new 5 handles even better than the old 5, though not by much. of course im talking about the one w/o SP. dont know why but i still hate the active steering, it gives me a hard time trying to communicate with the car whenever im driving it, particularly at lower speeds.
#323 of 729 Re: New 545 owner [vsaxena]
Jul 20, 2004 (10:09 pm)
Eloquently said vsaxena. It's a bit of an escape route to suggest that negative views of the new BMW design philosophy come from E39 owners who don't like change. The view that is shared by most media sources (C&D, MT, R&T, Autoweek, Motorweek et al) is that you need to overcome the design flaws and drive the thing to appreciate its virtues. A design should compliment, not detract from the driving/ownership experience.
BMW tried a radical new design direction that has failed. I assume they felt the need to attempt this because the E39-type designs were so widely mimicked by a number of other manufacturers that they were looking passe. But a good design is a good design. When I look at a 3/4 rear view of the E60 just below and behind the rear window and see all of those conflicting lines and angles it's like someone scratching on a blackboard - it just grates.
Surely a better approach would have been to have taken an evolutionary, rather than revolutionary approach, much in the way that Aston Martin, MB, Jaguar etc have taken. Aspects of all of these brands are widely copied yet they stick with a fundamental design philosophy that retains a strong sense of continuity.
#324 of 729 Re: New 545 owner [karmikan]
Jul 21, 2004 (5:56 am)
One thing I disagree with is that you said that the design route BMW has taken has failed. What are you basing that on? The dislike some people have for the cars? As the chart that I posted indicates, though sales have not been through the roof, they were ahead of the old 5 year-to-date in May. One additional thing I wanted to point out to vsaxena is that to expect a huge jump in sales in a down economy (I also disagree with the suggestion that the economy is doing better; in fact the market is flat at best) when you're talking about a car that costs over $60K. Only about 5% of the population can even afford one (if that) so it's not like we're talking about the release of a new Honda Accord for $25K here. I realize that the old 5 out sold the new one for May, but the really relevent numbers from a sales perspective are year end. In fact vsaxena read tha chart wrong. The number where the old 5 out sold the new one for May was the overall 5 sales (525, 530, 545 and station wagons). The new 530 and 545 both out sold the old 5 (1783 vs 1773 for the 530 and 909 vs 518 for the 545 vs 540). Also keep in mind that the station wagon is not released yet so the old 5's overall figures include that. Bottom line is that year-to-date as of May the new 5 had out sold the old one 18,996 to 16,894 for the 525, 530, and 545 (vs. 540). So as of May this year they had sold 2,102 more of the new 5's than the old body style last year. At the price of these cars calling that a failure makes no business sense. And we don't even have the figures for summer sales which I'd bet are even higher for the new 5. Once you include the year end sales this year I'd bet the new 5 will have sold at quite a bit more than last year's model. So though I agree that some people don't love them, that's not being reflected in sales at all.
#325 of 729 Re: New 545 owner [rich545]
Jul 21, 2004 (6:20 am)
Just for simplicity's sake here's an interesting way to look at this from a sales prespective. The 2,102 more new 5 series cars they sold probably represents about an $105,050,000.00 (I used and average price of $50,000) increase in gross sales over 2003 5's. And that's only as of May! I realize that isn't real accounting, but it certainly shows that BMW isn't crying about the new designs. Think about that for the entire year. I bet they'll end up selling about 5000 more new 5's this year than last. Using the $50,000 average price that I used above that's an increase in sales of $250M for 2004. Keep in mind also that January through May are probably the slowest sales months, and that they had and still have very limited stock of the new 5's (trust me, it was really hard to find the 545 I wanted). I know, get a life rather than posting all of these figures! I just think that it's important to separate personal feelings from business facts. Sure BMW would love to have everyone the owns an old 5 come back for a new one, but realistically as long as sales are meeting their projections (which none of us knows for sure) they really don't care.
#326 of 729 Impact of New Design: Sales Data E60 Not A Huge Hit
Jul 21, 2004 (7:12 am)
Using the sales figures from the October 2004 issue of Bimmer magazine, covering YTD thru May:
E60 525i sedan= 7081
E39 525i sedan= 6699
This is a small increase of only 382 units or only 5.7% increase.
E60 530i sedan= 8124
E39 530i sedan= 8082
This is an even smaller increase of only 42 units or a miniscule .5% increase.
E60 545i sedan= 3773
E39 540i sedan= 2113
This is a substantial 1660 unit increase or a huge 79% increase.
E60 sedan= 18996
E39 sedan= 16894
This is an increase of 2101 units or 12.4%.
BUT... Keep in mind that the E39 came out in CY1996 as a MY1997. So the E39 sales data from CY2003 comes at the end of its lifecycle. The E60 sales data comes at the start of its lifecycle, when it is making the biggest "splash" in the market and minds of consumers.
Would be interesting to see the following:
- What were BMW's internal sales projections?
- How much did BMW spend on research and development of the E60 and what incremental increase in costs to put it into production?
- What are the E60's marketing costs?
- Is BMW using incentives to move E60s?
- How much did it cost BMW per unit to produce E39 and E60? Does the E60 cost more to produce per unit?
#327 of 729 Re: Impact of New Design: Sales Data E60 Not A Huge Hit [riez]
Jul 21, 2004 (7:36 am)
Looks like we're using the same chart. I agree that it would be interesting to see what BMW's projections are, but we're most likely never going to know that. One thing you forgot to mention though was that BMW was also giving great deals on the 2003 E39 at the end of it's lifecycle to move it so that probably ramped up sales of it right at the end a bit. Also, would you agree that January through May is the slowest time sales-wise for cars? I don't know about you, but that's the time that I'm least likely to buy a car. It's the beginning of the model year still, I don't want to buy a new car in the dead of winter, and you're probably least likely to get a good deal then. Most people buy cars in the spring, summer and fall. So it would be interesting to see what sales are like May through year-end. Not sure what BMW's fiscal year is though. In all, I'm not saying it's a hugely successful launch of a new design, but then I don't work in the car industry so I don't know what would qualify when you're talking about very expensive cars. What I do know is this, just about any company out there would take a 12.4% increase in sales during their slowest period in a down economy. Hardly a failure. But as you said, there are other unknown costs to consider. Who knows how much money BMW has made (or lost) really. All that I'm getting at is that people assume sales are down when in fact they are not at least as of May.
#328 of 729 Re: New 545 owner [rich545]
Jul 21, 2004 (10:44 am)
Rich, I did not see the chart wrong. I was comparing TOTAL E39 vs E60 numbers since the focus is on the exterior styling which is common across all the models (525, 530, 54x etc.). I feel that the total number is a good indicator of the appeal of the design. The fact that the higher end models sold better actually highlights my case about the pent-up demand.
The higher-end cars are bought by people who are not price sensitive but more brand loyal. This may be because of the enthusiast factor or the brand image factor. These folks were waiting for the redesign and ordered it as soon as they were available. They want the "best" BMW and nothing else.
It is marginal buyer, who is considering multiple cars who will actually determine the success of the model-line. The marginal buyer will cross-shop and also focus on price. This is the segment that which will form the bulk of the 525 and some of the 530 buyers. The drop(or flatlining) in sales here, especially of the 525, is an indication of the problem. Once the pent-up demand and the novelty of the new design wears of, the E60 will have to compete against other cars. I am not too optimistic about that.
One may have argued that the E60 models were released in a staggered manner, and hence, the year to year comparisons are not kosher. However, the May numbers, when all the models were in general availability tend to discredit that concern.
Finally, I think the economy is doing much better than last year's doldrums. The typical 5 series buyer is in middle management or higher (30 years +). These folks did well last year; last year's Wall Street bonuses were the best in a few years. Many folks also made a killing in the stock market last year and have more money to spend now than last year.
reiz: I think there was a $1000 incentive around for the E60, though I am not sure.
Jul 21, 2004 (11:27 am)
still looking at the sales figures, i agree that the new 5er isnt doing that well.
most people dont usually bother to buy something thats at the end of its lifecycle, in this case the e39, they prefer to wait a year or less for a newer model, yet the sales isnt doing that great, even with better economical situations.
to me it already proves just how well the e60 will sell.
Jul 21, 2004 (11:43 am)
I'd agree with that appraisal.
I think anniversarying YTD sales from last year doesn't tell the whole story. For one thing we have departing model, and as soon as new model particulars make the scene, a current lame duck begins to slow, usually.
Better might be to compare the OA sales boost percentage YTD for the E60 against the first-year sales boost percentage for the E39 ('98?), if such figures are available.
I would imagine this new model is relatively flat when all is said and done. I suggest it has alienated about the same number as it has converted (retensions valuing at zero in the equation)...