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2800 messages,  Last post on Feb 15, 2005 at 1:48 PM

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What is this discussion about? Fuel System, Fuel System, Diesel, Hybrid Cars, Fuel Efficiency (MPG)

Messages Page 277 of 280

#2761 of 2800 Honda came to diesel to gain Euro market share. $$$ by larsb

Feb 15, 2005 (8:40 am)

Honda started talking about diesel market share in mid-2003, when they released the i-CDti engine in the European Accord:
 
"Industry News: Honda to focus on diesel in near future 05 Jun 03 00:00
  
Honda has this week unveiled its all-new 2.2-litre diesel engine, which will be fitted first in the Accord, and then in the CR-V range. The first models equipped with this will go on show at the Frankfurt Motor Show this September, and European sales will follow soon after.
 
The new engine, a four-cylinder, 16-valve all-aluminium unit with common-rail fuel injection, will develop "more than 340Nm" (251lb ft) of torque (pulling force), and 140bhp, and "will provide the best driving comfort in its class, ideal for the long-distance, high-mileage drivers", says the company. It will also have emissions levels "well below" the Euro IV requirements. Honda plans to make 24,000 of these engines a year at its facility in Takanazawa, Japan.
 
Honda is focusing on this diesel engine in its attempts to capture more of the mainstream car market. "The diesel will take a large volume of our sales, especially in Europe", Stephen Hollings, director of Honda Product Affairs, told 4car yesterday. "We need to get a lot of volume out of that". As such, this means that there are no immediate projects to develop more models with the IMA (Integrated Motor Assist) petrol-electric hybrid technology. "Accord IMA is not even on the plans for Europe," said Hollings. However, Honda is happy at the ongoing acclaim for its 1.0-litre (Insight) and 1.3-litre (Civic) IMA units, both of which won their respective categories at the International Engine of the Year awards (see link below), and is confident that sales of hybrids will continue to grow in the short term. "IMA technology is just about to take off in Europe," Hollings said. "In Japan and America, it's accepted technology. It's a solution that works for Honda... the mainstream brands don't have one (a hybrid). This gives us a unique proposition versus conventional engines. What IMA gives us is a completely different product offer that side-steps the opposition."
 
The lack of a plan to make an Accord IMA doesn't necessarily mean that all hybrid projects are on hold for the moment, though. "Remember that Dualnote is a fully working model", said Hollings, referring to the NSX-style hybrid concept Honda unveiled last year. "It is an indication of a hybrid car in a quite expensive market." With the diesel-unfriendly USA in mind, a high-performance hybrid might just make sense. In the meantime, Honda has high hopes for the 2.2 diesel engine, and Hollings has "absolutely no doubts" that this will be in the running for next year's Engine of the Year title.
  
From:
 
http://www.channel4.com/4car/news/news-story.jsp?news_id=5659

#2762 of 2800 Honda's chief engine designer HATED diesel for the dirtiness... by larsb

Feb 15, 2005 (8:44 am)

"Hate something? Change something."
 
"The film tells the story behind the creation of Honda’s first diesel in a unique way. Kenichi Nagahiro, the company’s chief engine designer and inventor of the celebrated VTEC engine, hated diesel engines, hated how noisy, smelly and dirty they were. When asked to design Honda’s first diesel he flatly refused - unless he was allowed to start completely from scratch. The result is one of the cleanest, most refined diesel engines on the market today, the 2.2 i-CTDi."
 
http://www.carpages.co.uk/honda/honda_asks_can_hate_be_good_02_10- - _04.asp?switched=on&echo=154321839

#2763 of 2800 Re: What wrong turn? [gagrice] by ruking1

Feb 15, 2005 (8:56 am)

Replying to: gagrice (Feb 15, 2005 8:09 am)
I think another thing that goes unsaid in the European market is that the gasser Honda's relative to the diesels are "GAS GUZZLERS:
If they persist in gasser offerings alone, they dial themselves out of 40-50%(diesel) of the passenger fleet market. If they do that they will slowly "die on the vine."
 
So from a strategic point of view suicide is not in the cards for Honda.

#2764 of 2800 Re: Honda came to diesel to gain Euro market share. $$$ [larsb] by gagrice

Feb 15, 2005 (9:00 am)

Replying to: larsb (Feb 15, 2005 8:40 am)
As such, this means that there are no immediate projects to develop more models with the IMA (Integrated Motor Assist) petrol-electric hybrid technology.
 
Isn't this what I have been saying all along? Gas/electric hybrid is not going to be mainstream. Possibly diesel/electric or diesel/hydraulic. The EPA is going into joint venture to build diesel/hydraulic vehicles. I don't think the sales of hybrids for Honda has been what they had hoped for. No long lines like for the Prius. Honda has not thrown all their eggs in the hybrid basket. I applaud them for building the i-CDTI. I wish they would sell it in the 45 states that don't have their head where the sun don't shine. I would live with the cramped cabin in the Accord if it was powered with the i-CDTI.

#2765 of 2800 gasoline more expensive by larsb

Feb 15, 2005 (9:01 am)

quote ruking1-"I think another thing that goes unsaid in the European market is that the gasser Honda's relative to the diesels are "GAS GUZZLERS."-end quote
 
Goes unsaid by whom? No one on this board avoids saying that.
 
Diesels are more popular in Europe because the fuel is cheaper. No other reason. Not because they are cleaner for sure.
 
But if you have an Accord gasser that gets 32 MPG and a diesel that gets 42 MPG and diesel is 20 cents cheaper per gallon than gasoline, the buyer is making the best economic decision. Not the best ENVIRONMENTAL decision, but the best choice for the driver's budget.

#2766 of 2800 Diesel is a better option for the dirty air Euros.... by larsb

Feb 15, 2005 (9:05 am)

quote gagrice-"As such, this means that there are no immediate projects to develop more models with the IMA (Integrated Motor Assist) petrol-electric hybrid technology."-end quote
 
PERFECT example of taking something out of context. :)The speaker was talking about the EURO market, where diesels dominate. Later in the paragraph, they said this:
 
"IMA technology is just about to take off in Europe," Hollings said. "In Japan and America, it's accepted technology. It's a solution that works for Honda... the mainstream brands don't have one (a hybrid). This gives us a unique proposition versus conventional engines. What IMA gives us is a completely different product offer that side-steps the opposition."
 
Gas/electric indeed might not become mainstream in Europe (as diesels have) but they will CERTAINLY become a valid option for millions of buyers in the USA over the next few years. There is no arguing that point.

#2767 of 2800 by ruking1

Feb 15, 2005 (9:05 am)

..."Goes unsaid by whom? No one on this board avoids saying that."...
 
So you did say they were gas guzzlers? So if you or other anti diesel advocates said it, where did you avoid having to avoid saying it?
 
"But if you have an Accord gasser that gets 32 MPG and a diesel that gets 42 MPG and diesel is 20 cents cheaper per gallon than gasoline, the buyer is making the best economic decision. Not the best ENVIRONMENTAL decision, but the best choice for the driver's budget."
 
While it is your opinion, it is strictly erroneous.
 
I also think it might be instructive to take a look at the 12% SUV market for an idea of how long it might take to get a % of hybrids in the vehicle fleet of 231M vehicles. Anti suv advocates have pointed to the almost "relentlessness" of the growth of SUV's. Among other attributes they point to the lack of utilization of the utility of SUV's. Yet it has taken a full generation and then some (30 plus years) to get to 12% of the population.

#2768 of 2800 Re: Honda came to diesel to gain Euro market share. $$$ [gagrice] by robertsmx

Feb 15, 2005 (9:06 am)

Replying to: gagrice (Feb 15, 2005 9:00 am)
Isn't this what I have been saying all along?
 
If you did, you would be wrong. The comment above is derived "for European market". Take note of that.
 
Gas/electric hybrid is not going to be mainstream
 
It already is mainstream. Last I read, two of best selling cars in America (Civic and Accord), and one of the best selling compact SUV (Escape) were being offered with hybrid options. Prius may not have been mainstream per se, but its sales volume will put shame to a lot of "mainstream" cars.

#2769 of 2800 Re: What wrong turn? [ruking1] by robertsmx

Feb 15, 2005 (9:08 am)

Replying to: ruking1 (Feb 15, 2005 8:56 am)
I think another thing that goes unsaid in the European market is that the gasser Honda's relative to the diesels are "GAS GUZZLERS
 
If you count Jazz out. And Civic Hybrid isn't a gasser, or is it?
 
Let us use "relativity" a bit more carefully next time around.

#2770 of 2800 Re: What wrong turn? [ruking1] by gagrice

Feb 15, 2005 (9:09 am)

Replying to: ruking1 (Feb 15, 2005 8:56 am)
gasser Honda's relative to the diesels are "GAS GUZZLERS:
 
You are right. Europeans with there stifling fuel tax, know an economical car when they see one. Honda had a very small market share with their gas vehicles. They just did not compare to other cars in Europe for mileage. They probably saw the high prices paid in Europe for diesel cars and wanted a piece of the action. One poster from Spain bought a Passat TDI for $35,000 and thought it was a bargain. No wonder VW concentrates on Europe and sends America the gas burning dregs. I'm sure their philosophy is if America wants gas guzzlers instead of efficient clean diesel, give it to them.

Messages Page 277 of 280

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