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Sedans Chevrolet Aveo Chevrolet Aveo Sedan
885 messages, Last post on Jun 13, 2008 at 11:29 AM
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Replying to: busiris (May 29, 2008 7:06 pm) To your other comment "You will find many models at 50% or less." Ok, what Chevy models are you talking about, please name them. Here is another area you need to research because the only one with a small domestic content is the Aveo at 8% which most people recognize as foreign just like the previous Geo division. All other vehicles are around 75% or higher. You think by having a BMW or Nissan plant down the road is good for the economy? Well how do you think those jobs came to be? You said that GM is leaving this country to build elsewhere namely Mexico. Have you figured out why? Do you know that they are forced to do that to stay in business because of these Japanese companies using their artificially valued Yen have come here on the cheap and also brought with them outside suppliers that changed the way American companies do business. Have you heard that most all of the 100-2500 small employee companies mainly in Detroit have went out of business because they aren't price competitive. American companies were forced to use outsourced suppliers to stay in business because thats what Nissan, Toyota, etc., are doing. Have you ever thought about why an auto plant closes other than a model isn't popular. Do you think a new Japanese auto plant is a fair trade in American economics? Not even close. Toyota is famous for hiring part-time workers at low wages and no benefits and chose poverished areas to build plants. They are well known to avoid states with UAW's. When an American auto company tries to outsource more parts UAW goes on strikes. Have you heard of the recent American Axle strike? UAW also prevents further consolidation of auto plants and employees. Toyota doesn't have $3000-4000 per car taken off right off the top to pay for employee benefits. So what I am saying is that this is not good for our country. Have you thought of where that profit goes that Toyota makes? It goes back to Japan to their banking institutions. Our banks would love that money to stay healthy but that's not the case. An investiment in an auto plant with a couple billion dollars is nothing but a short-term investment and is basically a way to take big money from our economy with a few workers who benefited. It's not apple to apples im afraid.
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Replying to: poncho167 (May 30, 2008 10:29 am) Well, you're right about that, because your mind is already made up. I learned a long time ago to never argue with someone who has already decided on what to believe. If anyone killed the American economy, it was American companies...not foreign companies. Of course, the UAW helped by demanding unrealistic wages and benefits as well. As for the content in Chevrolets, I doubt you would take my word for it, so I invite you and anyone else reading this to drop by your local dealer and check out the domestic content percentages on the window stickers on the different models. I have done exactly that, but again, do it yourself...you wouldn't believe whatever I typed here anyway. You will have no problem finding several models below your stated 75%, and the sticker does indeed state "North American" content.... Go ahead and buy whatever you like...its a free country. However, I have seen first hand what companies like BMW and Michelin have done for the area where I live...Clean, pollution free plants paying good wages. I have also seen what those "American" companies that you champion have done here as well...Superfund cleanup sites, brown lung, low wages when they were here and all that goes along with it. Keep on believeing that what's good for GM is good for the US economy. While you're at it, you can also tell us all about another paragon of US industry, Chrysler ,and how buying a Chrysler is good for the USA...Bob Nardelli, the much-loved ex-CEO of Home Depot and the private capital group have the US worker and customer's best interest at heart...yeah, right.... |
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Just got back in from dinner. While we were out, we stopped in a GM dealership along the way. It was getting dark, so I only had a few minutes to look around. You know, us old folks don't see so well after dark... First, Poncho said the window stickers show "domestic content", and I said they show "North American Content." At this dealership, the window stickers showed "US/Canadian Content", so either we were both wrong or there is some leeway in how these things are printed I was out of town when I visited the dealership showing "North American Content", so I can't easily verify that I was correct. In any case, I will concede the point. To your other comment "You will find many models at 50% or less." Ok, what Chevy models are you talking about, please name them. Here is another area you need to research because the only one with a small domestic content is the Aveo at 8% which most people recognize as foreign just like the previous Geo division. All other vehicles are around 75% or higher. Now, for some example vehicles... Chevy HHR-LT VIN 3GNCA23DX85681736 40% US/CAN Chevy Equinox FWD-LS VIN 2CNDL23F186284158 55% US/CAN Pontiac Torrent VIN 2CKDL33F286061730 55% US/CAN Pontiac Vibe 2.4L VIN 5Y2SP670X92420614 61% US/CAN Poncho was correct on the Cobolt...80% US/CAN. One last comment... Poncho said..An investiment in an auto plant with a couple billion dollars is nothing but a short-term investment and is basically a way to take big money from our economy with a few workers who benefited Well, exactly how many billions of dollars would it take for you to consider it a permanent investment? Do you realize how many vehicles it takes to recoup that kind of investment? Again, I use the BMW example, because that is the one I am the most familiar discussing. They are investing additional hundreds of millions of dollars to increase production at this plant, and moving more product lines here for production. Come take a look and tell me or anyone else that its a "temporary" investment. I'm sorry, but my experience in the business world and with capital investment strategy simply doesn't allow me to view investment like that as "temporary" or inconsequential.
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Replying to: busiris (May 30, 2008 5:32 pm) I said Chevy models. I knew the HHR was less than 50% but I didn't post it initially but I knew you would bring it up because its made in Mexico, and the Equinox is more the same. Where are these many cars that you talked about? They don't exist. You would have been better off with that statement should you have been talking about Chrysler, but GM is as American as it gets. The Pontiac Torrent is an Equinox with different front and rear styling. The Pontiac Vibe is a shared platform with the Toyota Matrix. Most people know that its mostly Toyota. As far as building in America goes these are temporary small investments that will rake in billions of dollars back to their country to their banking structures. How long does it take to make billions, not much when you sell a few hundred thousand vehicles. BMW is also taking advantage of the Euro vs. dollar and doing more of the same. This is one of the reasons why this country is losing money and has such a big trade deficette. When the money doesn't stay it hurts our economy. Our banks need that big money to survive and offer services to our citizens at reasonable rates/interest. Are you aware that even if Ford or GM wanted to start building auto plants in Japan we couldn't. There are laws in place that prevent foreign companies from coming into Japan and taking a piece of the pie (economy). China and India are making multi-billion dollar buyouts of banking institutions here and its worrying many economists with some wanting regulations to be put in place before its too late. What does that mean I can't really say, but I thought the same way when I heard about it and then the uproar after that by people who follow economic and financial transactions for a living. This is not good for America.
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Replying to: poncho167 (May 31, 2008 9:43 am) As for finance, based upon the comments in your earlier postings above, I suspect that you have little to no background in that area. If I am wrong in that assumption, please state your credentials. As the sub-prime lending fiasco has proved, there has been anything but a shortage of money to lend in this country. This fact is also supported by record low interest rates. There is no cash shortage in the banking industry today. Oh, just in case you want to use Bear Stearns as an example, that is/was an investment group (not a bank), not subject to the banking rules and regulations, which made some bad investment decisions and that is why it no longer exist as a going concern. You stated... Are you aware that even if Ford or GM wanted to start building auto plants in Japan we couldn't. There are laws in place that prevent foreign companies from coming into Japan and taking a piece of the pie (economy). Please elaborate...point out where I can read these restrictions. Now, correct me if I am wrong, but all the cars I listed above are GM vehicles, carrying the Chevrolet or Pontiac nameplate. The window sticker says Chevrolet Equinox or Chevrolet HHR. You purchase them at a Chevrolet dealer, and have warranty/service work performed there as well. They ARE Chevrolet vehicles, plain and simple. Just because I was able to substantiate my claim doesn't give you the right to distort the truth or change the conditions of the question that you posed. Like Senator Patrick Moynahan famously said once, "You are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts." I do, however, agree with your point...GM is as American as it gets, and its getting less and less American each year...the car examples above prove it. Now, you can like it or not, but its a FACT! Do I think moving production out of the US is good? Of course not. I would love to see it stay here. I do have my doubts, though... Why? Well, the 1950/60's are gone, and gone for good.The US manufacturing industry enjoyed a 40 year period using the windfall of WW II, which destroyed most of Europe's and Japan's production capabilities. When competition finally came knocking at the auto manufacturer's door, it was ignored. GM, Ford and Chrysler happily let the Japanese and European car makers in, because they were selling small, cheap cars...and, as Henry Ford II said, "Small cars mean small profits." Problem was, the competition had no intention of staying with cheap small cars. Satisfied with the idea that they knew everything that was necessary to succeed in the car business, the US car makers continued to ignore the competition until it was too late. And, all the while, the UAW was in the same boat, refusing to acknowledge the world around them was changing. No one was willing to stand up and be the "adult". The perfect recipe for failure. But the real problem is that the same attitude continues today. Ford, GM and Chrysler all ignored the energy situation, primarily continuing to build big cars and trucks. The leadership of the big 3 are paid tens of millions each year to perform the task of looking into the future, and the have done an absolutely horrible job of it. On the other hand, the Europeans/Japanese/Koreans do a pretty good job of it. That reasoning is verified in new car sales numbers. Now, if the big 3 were building what Americans wanted to drive, please tell us how they continue to lose market share. Why would Americans buy a car they didn't really want? I will give GM some credit...the Malibu is a good step in the right direction. But, it can't be equipped as nicely as its competition...For example, in the 08 model, no in-dash NAV system, but instead a hybrid On-star derivitive...Even though the majority of buyers don't buy a NAV equipped car, many buyers are keenly aware of the technology availability/limitations on vehicles and make purchasing decisions accordingly. Few folks want to buy any product that appears the be technologically behind, unless the price is really cheap. I also understand the labor issues here in the US. In fact, there was an article in the local newspaper today stating the UAW is upset because Ford announced a couple of days ago that they are going to build the US version of the Fiesta in Mexico. It is totally wthin the power of the UAW and big 3 to fix that problem, but they must be realistic in solving it. Again, the 1960's are over, and new problems require new and innovative solutions. There is no law prohibiting them from working together and solving these issues. You know, I think it is possible the US can regain its lead in the auto manufacturing business, but it won't be easy nor pain free. The UAW is going to have to recognize the world has changed, or they will end up with nothing. And, Management must cast off its old, pre-conceived notions on how the car business works and get creative again. The days of the US being the premier manufacturing sector in the world are over. Its gone, and its never coming back. Its truly a world economy today, and the sooner the US starts dealing with that fact the better off we will all be. I closing, I attempt to do what I think is best for me and my country when buying products. I prefer to buy American made, if the quality and price are somewhat comparable and the product is reasonable. If its not available, the I attempt to buy something that has as much US influence in it as possible. As you know from previous postings, I owned an 05 Aveo LT. While the mechanics were good, the body began self-destructing at around 20 K miles, and I traded it at 34 K miles. I tried the GM product, and it failed for me. When I began looking for an alternative, I found no domestically made unit available that I found appealing. So, I did the next best thing...I bought an Altima made by Americans in Canton, Mississippi. I considered other cars, including the VW Jetta, but ruled it out...one reason was no production facilities here in the US. If you feel that you need to support GM, then, by all means, please buy their products. If that works for you, great! Just don't expect everyone else to share your point of view...
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Replying to: busiris (May 31, 2008 6:53 pm) You twisted this around after this started as a Chevrolet discussion. The HHR, Aveo, Equinox, yes they are lower in domestic content especially the Aveo which is an import. But to claim that there is many was a false statement. You could have said there are a couple or few but not many. As far as the finincial market goes the banking industry is not healthy in this country. Because of the lack of financial activity within banks they are not prosperring in this weak recession economy. Yes, I do say recession and it has been that way for about one year now according to many. For political reasons Washington doesn't want to use that word. Our president killed our economy with his bad decisions and big spending sprees and selfish reason to murder innocent people. It will take many years to get back what we had before this criminal got into office. There is more of an issue to what cars we build and what people want to drive. Face it there are a lot of uneducated consumers out there just like there are a lot of sleepers who don't understand the politics of this country or even care. There really has only been a couple bad American cars but some others are just average and others are very good or leaders in their segment. Peoples perceptions about Japanese cars are generally based off misinformation and marketing which the Japanese have been good at. A lot of people buy cars based on image for some reason. I know these people and my friends Lexus 330 SUV was just that and he admitted to it. At least his other vehicles are American. Face it there is little or no difference in cars today to rule another off. Even Hyundai can put out a descent car. Toyota's persception is dwindling these last few years with the recalls and lack luster reviews. When you are at the top typically you forget who you got there and that is where the attention to detail suffers.
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Replying to: poncho167 (Jun 01, 2008 6:07 am) You twisted this around after this started as a Chevrolet discussion. The HHR, Aveo, Equinox, yes they are lower in domestic content especially the Aveo which is an import. But to claim that there is many was a false statement. You could have said there are a couple or few but not many. OK, you may have a point, but from my perspective, it was unintentional. Quite honestly, I was surprised at how many models were around 60% or less US/CAN content. And, remember, your earlier claim was that the Aveo was the ONLY one lower than 75%. In any case, I will concede the point that "many" or "several" may have been a poor choice of words. As far as the finincial market goes the banking industry is not healthy in this country. Because of the lack of financial activity within banks they are not prosperring in this weak recession economy. Yes, I do say recession and it has been that way for about one year now according to many. For political reasons Washington doesn't want to use that word. Our president killed our economy with his bad decisions and big spending sprees and selfish reason to murder innocent people. It will take many years to get back what we had before this criminal got into office. I make it a point to never discuss politics and religion, mainly because someone always seems to get pissed off, but I will add that George W. would be incorrect to list me as being an avid supporter of his. Nevertheless, the usual description used in the financial world for "recession" is "2 sequential quarters with no/negative GNP growth." Clearly, that hasn't happened. Now, where you live locally may indeed be in a recession, and things may be really tough there...but, as a whole, we are not in a recession in the true sense of the word. Also, if I may make a point...One man doesn't run this country. While I ABSOLUTELY agree that the current deficits are unsustainable, brother Bush had a lot of help from both parties in getting us to where we are now. Our government spends money so fast that it would embarass any drunken sailor...If we, as a country, can't get a grip on how Washington is driving this bus, we are all doomed for a quick ride over the cliff's edge....and, soon! There is more of an issue to what cars we build and what people want to drive. Face it there are a lot of uneducated consumers out there just like there are a lot of sleepers who don't understand the politics of this country or even care. There really has only been a couple bad American cars but some others are just average and others are very good or leaders in their segment. Peoples perceptions about Japanese cars are generally based off misinformation and marketing which the Japanese have been good at. A lot of people buy cars based on image for some reason. I know these people and my friends Lexus 330 SUV was just that and he admitted to it. At least his other vehicles are American. In many ways, I agree....Every manufacturer makes good and bad designs as well as individual cars. And, the Japanese have no monopoly on distorting marketing claims...all the manufacturers do it. Remember, too...the ad-men making these advertisements are US companies...so, I would simply say its not just the Japanese... As for image, brother! Isn't that the truth! Since I live near the US BMW plant, this area is "eaten up" with folks driving BMW's. I would bet that, per capita, South Carolina has more 3 series than any other state in the US. Problem is, quite a lot of these folks really can't afford the cars. They are going to drive one, however, even if it means being late or missing the house/rent payment. I guess Forest Gump was right..."Stupid is as stupid does." Face it there is little or no difference in cars today to rule another off. Even Hyundai can put out a descent car. Toyota's persception is dwindling these last few years with the recalls and lack luster reviews. When you are at the top typically you forget who you got there and that is where the attention to detail suffers. Quite correct. As I stated earlier, the Malibu is probably as good or even better as any other car in its price range/size/class. And, in its race to overtake GM as top dog, Toyota's quality has indeed suffered. But, as I stated in an earlier posting, the domestic manufacturers did a wonderful job running off customers in the 70's-mid 90's, and I'm doubtful if they will ever recover substantially from those losses. Its extremely difficult to entice a previous customer to come back to you after you have screwed him over, especially since there are so many other quality choices out there. I have 1 other point I wish to discuss with you, but I will put it in a separate posting...Have a good day! |
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Let me begin by saying you should feel free to disagree with some/most/all of this posting... I wanted to address something you brought up in an earlier posting...the question about whether or not having foreign auto manufacturers establish plants in the US is good or bad for the US economy. 1st, a statement we both can agree upon... It is good for the US economy to have domestic auto manufacturers operating domestic plants making cars for domestic and foreign consumption. We would also agree on the statement... It is good for the US economy to have domestic auto manufacturers operating domestic plants making cars for domestic consumption. And, the statement... It is good for the US economy to have domestic auto manufacturers operating domestic plants making cars for foreign consumption. We can agree on these statements because US companies are making money employing US workers who, in turn, pay US taxes. Here's where it gets dicey... It is good for the US economy to have foreign auto manufacturers operating domestic plants making cars for domestic and foreign consumption. This is indeed what we have today, and from your recent postings, you appear to disagree. Well, what's different? The US employee is still being employed at a decent wage (we can get into UAW .vs. non-UAW issues later if you wish, but that is entirely another can of worms...) and paying taxes. The plant and equipment is also being taxed, just like domestic manufacturers, contributing millions of dollars to local economies. The difference is that a foreign company is now controlling the profits from these operations, versus domestic companies. However, taxes are still being paid on the domestic revenues created by these companies...just like what GM or Ford would pay operating a plant in, say Germany or Japan. Granted, it would be better overall if the profits were controlled domestically, since in theory our country can exert control over our own companies, but I would make the argument that in today's world-based economy, nationality isn't nearly as important as it once was. Companies at this level are keenly aware of monetary exchange rates and issues, and they don't simply pile the cash in a boat and sail home with it like they might have done 50 years ago. They do indeed convert the currencies into the national currency when reporting profits and accounting information, but that is done in order to make the information more "readable and understandable" to the investors, governments, etc. One other point...You appear to feel that these foreign companies are only here temporarily. I can't name even one foreign car company with a US presence that has reduced its overall investment here in the US... I can't...Can you? And, how long has Honda had a presence in Ohio? 20, 25, 30 years or more? When does temporary become permanent...at least, in a business sense? At one time, the Honda plant was a net exporter of some models, making more here than were sold here. I don't know if that continues to be the case today. If you still feel that having foreign manufacturing plants...be it auto, tire, appliance...whatever...is bad for the US economy, I would suggest you contact any of the localities or states where these plants are located and ask the appropriate officials their opion on the matter. I feel sure they would see nothing negative at all, and be more than happy to quote a long list of positives to you. If I sound a bit like I am preaching here, I humbly appologize. It isn't my attempt. You are entitled to your own opinion, and I respect that. From your earlier postings, you appear to be a decent, family oriented man, and I would never attempt to show you disrespect. Have a good day!
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Oye is this the Chevrolet Aveo discussion group or not???? 
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Replying to: busiris (Jun 01, 2008 5:38 pm) As far as blocks being put in place for American companies to do business over there you can research that on your own. I am not here to give links to stories regarding that because it is somewhat known that Japan doesn't like companies other than Japanese doing business in its country and there are political and financial road blocks to go through. And as far as how it hurts the U.S. economy when a foreign car builder builds here. Again I will go back to what I said before. Its no fair trade off because a foreign car builder employee takes a job from an employee from Ford, Chrysler, etc., so that person loses his/her job. They already have places (usually outside the U.S.) were they are going to get their parts thus forcing U.S. companies to look for less inexpensive parts outside of the U.S. therebye the closure of local suppliers and union issues (strikes, contract extensions). To stay competitive because of the increased costs caused by the foreign invasion American cars company employees lose out to Mexico, China, Indonesia, etc, to those parts that were previously created here. Then there are companies like Toyota who make it a practice of hiring part-timers to avoid benefits. I can say this that Japanese cars did help American companies get off their butts and pay attention to detail in build quality. I have worked in the auto industry in the past as a porter/detailer, and salesman so I have seen and driven many cars. The auto dealers I worked for were; 2 Nissan dealers, 1 Mazda dealer, 2 Chevrolet dealers, 1 Toyota dealer. Other than fit and finish there wasn't really any other noticible difference. The American vehicles tended to be heavier (doors, hoods, etc) but they both had similar service issues. |
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