Last post on Oct 13, 2010 at 5:13 PM
You are in the Pontiac GTO
What is this discussion about?
Pontiac GTO, Coupe
#3949 of 4353 Re: What happened to Robert? [sputterguy]...GTO DISCONTINUED.......mparis1 [mparis1]
Mar 24, 2006 (3:18 pm)
It figures they sold more GTO's in '04 than '05, because they made more (16k in '04, 11k in '05). They are planning on making 13k '06's, so we'll see what sales are like. There probably will be some cars available still in early '07 due to the lack of a replacement model (some dealers hung onto Camaros and Trans Ams for 2-3 years after they were discontinued in 2002). So, sales should be about even.
Yes, there will be another GTO. I'd bet my 401K on it. It's in the design stages now and it supposedly looks fantastic. It appears that the rumors of the Quad Coupe are just that, rumors. The other big news is that Pontiac is probably not getting a Grand Prix/Bonneville replacement (i.e. no big RWD 4-door sedan - pity, I wanted a next-gen Holden Commodore SS as my next car). With GM's new flexible manufacturing capability, and basing the next-gen car on the NA version of Zeta (to be used by the Camaro, the next-gen Impala/Bel Air, next-gen Chevelle, and a next-gen Buick sedan), the costs are amortized. Not sure yet if there will be one plant (Oshawa, Ontario, Canada) or two (Oshawa and Wilmington, Delaware, where the Solstice/Sky/Opel variant of the Sky are built). The plan is to sell 15-20k vehicles, starting at around $30k, sometime in late 2008 as a 2009 model.
I am not in denial that GM has money issues... but they also have tons of good product in the queue. They've made a number of moves (warding off potential Delphi/UAW strike, selling off part of GMAC, their ownership stake in Suzuki and Subaru) to bring in $$$. This will get them through 2006 into their contract year with the UAW in 2007, at which point in time they will be pushing to close factories, end the jobs bank, increase the union contribution to health-care costs, et. al. At least they have new product in the pipeline (unlike Ford, who IMHO is hurting even worse, but not bleeding as much cash as GM). GM has no margin for error... they need to execute, and every product needs to be a hit, for the next 3-4 years, to get out from under this.
Regarding tires... if you have the '05/'06 18" wheels I'd stay with 235/40R18 size tires. I would consider the "new tread" BF Goodrich KDW 2 tires (buddy had them on his IS300, they stuck like glue), Pirelli P-Zero Neros (used on the Mustang GT's), and Toyo's. Avoid the Goodyear F-1's like the plague - balance issues/vibration. The Nitto drag radials are pretty decent for dry traction, but if you drive the car in the rain (or, obviously, in winter), forget about the drag radials. They'll last maybe 10k miles, too, FWIW.
Hope this helps,
#3950 of 4353 Re: What happened to Robert? [sputterguy]...GTO DISCONTINUED.......mparis1
Mar 24, 2006 (3:27 pm)
I beleive that GM will survive, although as a much smaller company with much smaller market share. It may still take a bankruptcy to accomplish this.
As to there being both a GTO and a Camaro, I agree that its unlikely that both will make it to market. The problem, as I see it, is one of positioning and price. If GM can produce a LS2 type Camaro (320+ HP, six-speed, etc) and list it, and note I say list it, not what the price is out the door, for slightly over $20,000 then there is room for a GTO in the $25K to $28K bracket. If the Camaro, in V8 trim, lists closer to the Mustang GT at about $26K, you end up with the issue of fine granualarity pricing, or what do you get for the extra $2K in a GTO.
If the Camaro does fall into the $26K to $32K bracket, covering the higher performance, higher content models (including the propose LS7), then the GTO either competes for the same customers, if its priced into the same range, or it needs to move upscale into the $30K to $38K, or greater, price bracket. In this price range the compitition is quite different and pure "muscle car" image does not do well in this range. Nor does a brand that is not considered a competitor in this range where BMW, Lexus, etc start to play.
This, I think, is part of the problem with the GTO today. Its a nice car. Its a nice driver. But its a tweener. It doesn't list low enough to attact the attention of the younger crowd, despite what it actually goes for out the door, and it doesn't have the brand image, and more important the content (lux type items) to play with the BMW and Lexus models and attract that group.
So, if they do bring back both its likely they will compete for the same customers and this is likely to be a zero sum game for GM.
#3951 of 4353 Re: What happened to Robert? [sputterguy]...GTO DISCONTINUED.......mparis1 [elkiii]
Mar 24, 2006 (5:42 pm)
I don't think you'll see an LS2 in either vehicle since I believe the St. Catherine's engine plant gets shut down in 2008 as well. The LS3 (425+ hp) is coming, as well as another V8.
Base Camaro - 22k w/3.9L V6 - midrange - LS3 or the mystery V8? $26-$30k. There may be an LS7 version later on down the road, but expect BIG $$$ ($40k+).
The GTO will start around $30k and have the LS3. It will be a somewhat larger vehicle than the Camaro (NOT a clone/reskin the like 4thgen F-bodies were) and will go up to $35k with features like sunroof, HIDs, NAV, et. al.
#3952 of 4353 alignment saga continues - 6 days!? / headlights / camber
Mar 25, 2006 (3:53 am)
my 05 remains in dealer shop. so it will have taken them at least SIX DAYS to align it. they claim this is due to some nuts/bolts that get consumed by removing them. i find this almost too bizarre to be believed. does it mean that no non-dealer shop can ever align the car without ordering parts from australia and waiting 6 days? i will try to get the part #s of these parts they are ordering.
speaking of headlights/HIDs. i find i like the projector-beams of the goat WAY better than the xenons on our volvo xc90. way better lighting pattern - seems like more light - no abrupt cutoff of the light pattern. i can just see better/further with the goat lights than with the xc90s xenons, i think.
btw, thanks for those previous alignment specs Robert - i note that those specs do specify a slight negative camber from the factory! is that unique to gto - negative camber in factory alignment specs. it is consistent with the handling of the car, sometimes it felt like it has "snap oversteer" reminiscent of the old porsche 911s. i sorta liked it i sure noticed that the handling was way different than any of my Z28s, as soon as i pushed the goat through a turn. (that is, it didn't "push" at all - oversteer instead).
#3953 of 4353 Re: More pics of strut rub/blown bushings [hammen2]
Mar 25, 2006 (8:16 pm)
Thanks for the heads up. My Goat wanders on grooved pavement, but doesn't on non grooved. It also looks like I need to find an alingment ship that doesn't use the new fangled computers to aline the the wheels.
My father drove the goat for the first time today. He owned an 85' TA with all the goodies, and after his drive, proclaimed that the goat would have eaten the TA for lunch and dinner. I drove back from the halfway point, and promptly showed him what 0-60 in 5 secs is like. I then whipped it around a right hand turn at an intersection, and proceeded to pin the food bags to the left hand side of the car........yeeeeeeehaaawwwwwwwwww.
#3954 of 4353 Re: More pics of strut rub/blown bushings [hammen2]
Mar 27, 2006 (1:19 pm)
i want to thank everyone who has been providing very usefull information about the strut bushing problem, gm contact info, and updated alightment specs.
i have been considering purchasing a new 2006 and now have some thoughts on that for any one also considering such a purchase.
first of all, the cost of non oem strut bushings and tires must be factored in. the chance thata bushing will fail after the warranty period is great as is the tire damage. second, the information regarding the bushing failure, liklihood of alignment issues, etc. must be brought to the sales manager's attention at the time the deal is negotiated. i for one will speak witht the pontiac service manager about all this before i even start the negotiations.
second, gm/holden must issue a recall with a new bushing design to fix the problem. i agree that nhtsa must be notified asap by every gto owner.
if every gto owner notifies nhtsa, it will commence an investigation and given the seriousness of the damage to the tire, and a liklihood of blow out, would mandate a recall.
thanks to all. rr70
#3955 of 4353 Re: More pics of strut rub/blown bushings [roadrunner70]
Mar 28, 2006 (1:33 pm)
I think all you need to do is have the dealer replace the OEM bushings with Noltec or Pedders. Parts should be between $175-$250 and should take under an hour to install. The car will need an alignment. If you do this when you buy the car, and have the alignment checked and have them look for visible signs of strut rub during tire rotations, you'll do fine...
Remember, if you get the optional 18" summer-only tires and wheels, they are only a 235-sized tire and generally won't rub. All Monaros come with 18"ers from stock - GMNA downsized the tires to 17's (but increased the size to 245) due to concern about crappy roads and ride quality/bent rims...
I agree that anyone who has experienced this issue should notify NHTSA at http://www.nhtsa.gov
I know a large number of GTO owners are on-line, but not all, and not a large percentage of on-line folks know about this potentially-serious issue. Hopefully GM becomes proactive rather than reactive and begins to notify 2004-2006 GTO owners... in the meantime, it's best to be proactive yourself...
#3956 of 4353 Re: Wheel/Tire pic [b4z]
Mar 28, 2006 (9:21 pm)
Can you post some more pics of your rims? I am going to get a torrid red M6 and really wanted the 17's but the only one they have coming in has 18's which I dont really care for.
#3957 of 4353 goat alignment is complete. 7 days. $250
Mar 29, 2006 (8:21 am)
hi. i thought you all might be amused or curious about my 05 goat's alignment issues. car has ~15k miles. the alignment took 7 days to complete at a cost of about $250. i find this to be extremely curious and consistent with the known issues regarding GTO strut-bushings/strut-rub/etc/etc. here are the details and cost breakdown and parts that were delivered apparently via outrigger-canoe from australia.
"customer reports excessive tire wear, please check and advise". response: performed front end alignment. excessive negative camber on vehicle. labor: $78 .
(alignment reports indicates that the alignment was in fact very close to being WITHIN FACTORY SPEC to begin with (below)).
"align: check steering, suspension, shocks, tie-rods, ball joints, tires, set tire pressure, toe-in, camber, caster, road test". labor: $79.95 (again). parts: $56.
installed 92138205 NUT 06164-PC (4 $4.85). installed 92138049 washer (06178-PC) 4$1.64. installed 11090821 bolt 06009-PC 4$7.60 . "additional parts needed for strut hardware to complete alignment properly". service rep indicated verbally that they had to drill out the old parts. i find this bizarre. the car is 10 months old - why were the parts "frozen"?
bottom line is that the alignment cost me over $200 . maybe they charged me for the labor twice but i do believe that it took them considerable hours to do this work. i will enquire as to whether they charged for the labor twice. i still like this dealership and believe they are honest. i will probably reporting all of this to that Jorge dude at GM (thanks for his info, Robert).
i do not plan to notify NHTSA as i do not necessarily/yet agree there is a safety problem here.
here is the portion of before/after vehicle alignment info which looks signficant to me. first # is "before" middle numbers are spec-range. final # is "after".
caster left 8.9 (6.5-9.0) 8.9
caster right 9.3 (6.5-9.0) 9.3 [still OUT OF SPEC!]
camber left -0.6 (-0.7 0.3) 0.1
front camber right -0.4 (-0.7 0.3) 0.0
toe left 0.10 (0.00 - 0.15) 0.10
toe right -0.10 (0.00 0.15) 0.10
toe total 0.00 (0.00 0.35) 0.25
camber left -1.4 (-1.7 -0.4) -1.5
camber right -1.5 (-1.7 -0.4) -1.5
toe left 0.10 (0.05 0.35) 0.10
rear toe right (0.05 (0.05 - 0.35) 0.00 [OUT OF SPEC!]
toe total 0.15 (0.05 0.75) 0.10
thrust angle 0.0 (0.2) 0.1
(the "front/rear" doesn't really match up with the other columns on their printout - i have reflected that discrepancy above).
all the secondary angles are unchanged according to their report and are within the spec #s on their printout so i am not mentioning those.
i put in a call to the service rep and asked him to comment on why after a week and $250, two of the alignment numbers are still out of spec. i do pity the guy for having to put up with my incredible nitpicking. but hey, that's the way it goes. now to go look up that Jorge guys info.
#3958 of 4353 Re: goat alignment is complete. 7 days. $250 [elias]
Mar 30, 2006 (8:17 am)
This is all pretty sad, to be honest. If the strut rod bushings are blown, this is all for naught. With the bushings flopping around as you drive, the alignment is constantly changing based on whether you are accelerating, braking, and/or turning. Obviously, you are only interested in getting the car right, regardless of effort or cost required. This is honorable. Your experience is why I don't purchase extended warranties. A warranty is only as good as the people "honoring" the warranty. I've found very few dealer service people who have the knowledge, ability, attitude and backing from the manufacturer to do anything right on a consistant basis. If I can troubleshoot the problem (with which the internet helps immeasurably), most of the time I have better results repairing it myself, and not even involve the dealer service department. About 50% of the time they actually break/scratch/damage something else anyway. Just not hardly worth the frustration, short of a major failure of some kind.