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Prices Paid: Buying & Leasing Experiences Mazda6 Prices Paid and Buying Experience
2088 messages, Last post on Nov 28, 2009 at 7:36 AM
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Replying to: aviboy97 (Feb 16, 2009 9:41 am) There was, (and is) a world wide oversupply of manufacturing capacity for autos. Since most people don't know how to buy cars, and need a target, a useful one is about 15-25% over the trade in value of the previous year (12+ months), depending on time of year. This formula would be useful for about 95% of production autos. The closer you can get within the target the better, Usually hitting 10-20 dealers last week of the month via email. We would like to be well within this target (or better) with the economy as it is and the financial position of the B3 . The M3 has been among the best in this regard for years, people easily getting the vehicle new for about 20% more than a used one, with little effort. 20+ years ago the average difference between published "invoice" and "msrp" prices was around 15%.Now, its a bit over 6. If you think the profit margin on cars has shrunk by more than half over the years you are silly. The published invoice figures representing "cost" on autos has been a nominal figure for almost 2 decades mitigated by advertised and unadvertised dealer incentives, and expected rebates. Assuming you know dealer "cost" from published "invoice" figures and subtracting "holdback" etc is many times not useful. This is especially true when dealers are given additional unadvertised incentives to dump stock in a particular model or region. Sedans are sedans, one way or another, the 1st year depreciation gives one an idea of how unrealistic the msrp for a particular model is. Most cars depreciate about the same percentage after the 1st 12 months. Many people rarely buy cars, and may get excited about a huge $7000 off a 24000 msrp Chevrolet Impala. Paying 17000 for an asset worth about 10000 in 12 months is nothing to really jump at. You've eaten about $3000+ whether you sell the vehicle or not. Eating 7000 to drive a mediocre sedan the 1st 12 months isn't great whether you sell it or drive it 10 years. One needs at least 10k off this vehicle to make sense, for example. If not doable one should pick one of the better models, or really really want a new Impala. So- one shouldn't sprain his ankle getting to a dealer for a $7000 off msrp deal on an Impala, or a $3000 off deal on a M6. This is when the economy was good. Also, since I highly doubt you are an economist, you are forgetting that the economy has driven down the values of every vehicle out there, including Honda and Toyota I'm not an economist, I'm not that silly. You don't need to be an economist to know the economy has driven down prices (many trade in prices about 15%), thats why we want more offie the (increased?) 09 msrp-ie. Second, you cannot talk about the Mazda6 sales being that bad because Mazda was never, and will never be on the sales charts like the Accord and Camry. I would really like to see how you can figure what an 09 Mazda6 would be worth used right now Please do not site KBB, since their values are worth nothing. Certainly, thats why we compare trade in values to its competitors-- $10000 (Impala)-14000 (Altima), and the 08 used mazda6 around 12000, One makes a reasonable guess that the 09 will be worth 13000-14000 in 12 months (we'll give it the benefit of the doubt). No reason to think otherwise. Mazda's standing in the world hasn't changed much, and the Toyota and Honda probably still have higher trade in's. (I didn't look them up) I'm sure all the wholesalers I've seen at auctions for years with the different bibles in their pockets (some published for 90 years) would like to know that they are "worth nothing". You owe it to them to share this knowledge. Good luck --jjf |
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Replying to: djhalptert (Feb 17, 2009 12:22 am) Lastly, why is this conversation even taking place is you are not going to sell this car within a year? No one is stupid enough to do that Well, like I said it is irrelevant when you sell it, and it may be true that most of the world will never be as smart as you guys, but when I sold cars people were switching rides early all the time. New family additions (the stork), circumstances change, the spouse can't stand it another minute, they can't afford it, and there are the legions of car nuts. Some of the car nuts were car smart, they knew how to buy a car to sustain their "habit", some didn't care, they are getting the newest and greatest. No one is stupid enough to do that It happens that sometimes when I would deliver a car replacing an early trade, I would get a look at the buyers family and housing situation. A lot of times I saw evidence that these individuals were probably (very generously) AT LEAST as smart as you. Besides, getting out of a car early can occur for multitudes of reasons. Repossessions too (especially now) This doesn't even take into account should one total his 22000 msrp M6 he paid $19000 for a year from now, there is a fair probability the insurance agent will be handing you a check for about $13000 for it. If you get excited at a $6000 off msrp deal on a 09 27000 (25700 "invoice") Chevy Impala and pay 21000 for a vehicle that has an 08 trade in of under $13000 you have spent over $8000 (+finance) to drive a average sedan for the 1st 12 months in a period of falling car sales yet. This is whether you sell it or drive it for 20 years. Avoid getting caught up with nominal "invoice" and other "dealer cost" figures. Second, you cannot talk about the Mazda6 sales being that bad because Mazda was never, and will never be on the sales charts like the Accord and Camry. The Mazda6's YOY sales numbers are not much worse the both Camry and Accords YOY sales. Mazda6 was down 8.5% for 2008 and the Accord was down 5.3%. 3.2% is not that big. Mazda expressed disappointment at (Q4) M6 sales vs the same year ago quarter (off 40%+?). The M6 was not selling as well as its other mazda products. Year over year figures (YOY) are not as useful in a rapidly tanking economy. Yearly sales down 8.5% for a low volume vehicle like the M6 vs 5% and 3% for a higher volume vehicle is a big deal in any event. So to review: -If a 09 vehicle's (our M6) direct competitors have 08 trade in values of $11,000 (Impala and G6),12000 (Fusion, Sonata, Aura, M6) and $14000 (Altima) its likely that vehicle will also have a trade in value in that range in 12 months, especially if the previous design 08 M6 trades in for 12000. This is in a normal economy much less with sales falling. -Significant #s of people, some as smart as you and (dare I say it) possibly smarter than you are out of vehicles and into others in about a year for various reasons. -People who try to calculate dealer "cost" from published "invoice" figures and subtracting advertised incentives and rebates when such figures have been nominal for almost 2 decades get no fortune cookie. So, welcome to car sales and planet earth. |
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Replying to: jfritsch (Feb 17, 2009 6:13 am) "With invoice at over $26k and $1k from the factory we are a little ways away (from my $23,500 offer). Granted, there is some dealer holdback, but it is a few hundred not thousand dollars. And of course, this money is used to pay me and the other staff that are needed to process your transaction and keep the lights on. With the current state of the car industry dealers can ill afford to lose hundreds of dollars on every transaction. That said, I will do everything possible to earn your business." This is a direct quote from the highest volume Mazda dealer in my area. So Jfritsch, do you think you can get $10,000 off a Mazda6? I can't even get $4,000 off with a $1,000 rebate included. If you can please send me the dealer and salesman. If not, quit making up nonsense.
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Replying to: jfritsch (Feb 17, 2009 6:13 am) Do you honestly think you can buy a new Mazda 6, or any other car for that matter, for 15-25% over it's previous year trade-in value? The market is so much more complicated than that. It has been complex for 20 years not just because of the recession. Trade-in values on last year's models have absolutely no correlation between real world new car prices. None. I don't understand where you are getting these figures. Have you even bought a new car in the past 10 years? I could see maybe drawing a conclusion of blue book PRIVATE PARTY values but not trade-in or wholesale values. PS: If you have any gold you want to get rid of I'll buy it from you at last year's wholesale price. Let me know. 
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Replying to: stoopy (Feb 17, 2009 9:19 am) Not exactly the $10,000 off jfritsch was rambling about. Only $2,541 off by my calculations. |
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Replying to: jfritsch (Feb 17, 2009 6:13 am) It may be that good deals are not being offered on this new model right now, like there were on the prior one and like there may be now on the outgoing Mazda3. Plus if the buyer is taking the discount financing, that costs something extra in the price too, so the reported selling price is going to reflect that.
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Replying to: jeffyscott (Feb 17, 2009 12:19 pm)
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It's also a bit annoying also. And confusing for the average car buyer...like myself. I usually know what I want to buy, know what my target price will be & know what I could live with paying wise. Since we never have ever financed a car, don't need to worry about a payment. If I ever did catch 0% financing, that would be a different story and I'd finance a good chunk and save the capital for investment oppurtunities. Obviously the poster who's doing all this research is a smarter and more sophisticated person than myself and he understands what he's trying to get across...most of us just don't see it and it seems rather pointless to us. To eqach his own I guess. But really, how many people really take in the 1st years depreciation into the variables of their new car purchase anyhow. Don't mean to rain on your parade about these calculations you like so much, but you make it more complicating thatn it needs to be and there's so much other stuff to mentally deal with that this kind of analysis seems silly. The Sandman  ( Not To Bright Or Sophisticated)
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Replying to: djhalptert (Feb 17, 2009 1:10 pm) On the Mazda6, the specific comment that seems to have started the controversy was: $3000 off a 22000 base mazda6 wouldn't seem that appealing to me at $19000. I believe the 20000msrp 09 mazda5 is barely worth 13000 in 12 months. $4000 or so off msrp is appropriate here, and your targets (price or price + financing.) Invoice minus rebate is probably $2500-3000 off and then Mazda is offering 0% on top of that, which is worth maybe $1500-2000. So $4000 off would seem to be pretty reasonable, if you don't take the financing. Or if the financing is worth it to you, just take that and $2500-3000 off (which has a true value of $4000 or more off, due to the savings on interest).
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Here are the quotes I got: Honda Civic EX: $18,398 Mazda 6 i touring: $19,450+$1250(sunroof)=20,650 ( I like sunroof) What would you choose based on the performance of the cars and their prices? Thanks.
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