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Smart Shopper Documentation Fees
667 messages, Last post on Sep 18, 2009 at 3:24 PM
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Replying to: rroyce10 (Mar 23, 2006 2:54 pm) Well, thanks for giving me all of the credit, but actually,I learned this from professional negotiators. People will find references and links to their work on several of my posts. I'd say that the Corolla provides a better analogy. Like the Corolla, dealer gimmicks have been with us for a long time, you can expect that they'll be with us for a long time to come, and they act predictably just about every single time. (And of course, they're cheap.) The package might look a bit different from time to time, but at its heart, the concept remains the same. And thankfully, your arguments here provide a good dress rehearsal for what the customer can expect to hear at the dealership. |
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Replying to: rroyce10 (Mar 23, 2006 2:39 pm) That was all I wanted to say...
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Replying to: dino001 (Mar 24, 2006 7:14 am)
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Replying to: british_rover (Mar 24, 2006 8:06 am) You see - I still speak an accent - and will do to the end of my life. Even if you and all the saleguys on this Forum swear that it's not the case, I know it puts me immediately into at least some disadvantage, as salesguy will likely assume I stepped off the boat yesterday. It's inevitable. This was my comment regarding that insight: Dino has a point, people (not just salespeople) will judge you by a combination of factors, including your accent, manner of speech, etc. That's why behavior is important during negotiation -- the response that you get will be based, in large part, by what you communicate through your body language, expressions and how you act. I essentially agreed with Dino, but added my position that I don't believe that it has to necessarily work to one's disadvantage. But he's absolutely right that it does create a difference, in part because it's human nature to make assumptions about others within less than a minute after we've first met them. Terry wants to deflect and pretend that sales tactics don't exist and that every customer is regarded in the same way. But anyone who has bought a car knows that this is simply nonsense. This forum is driven by the fact that many consumers are confused by the car buying process, and that they often feel ripped off. Do you honestly think that a couple of posts on this board from salespeople trying to convince us that they're angels is going to change this justifiable perception? |
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I read all posts spanning years. Is this not about documentation fees, lol? Anyway, I tell the dealers this fee is a deal breaker. Either they live with it or they do not make an offer to sell the vehicle. There is always the next dealer who will not charge. If we all did this then the dealers would stop charging. It is pure profit and they are not goint to make it on me. The issue here is control. Most car salespeople are told to take control over the purchaser. You must take the control back and not pay the silly documentation fee. Years ago dealers tried to charge for paint protection and undercoating. Consumers eventually began to say "no" and like someone mentioned earlier, the dealers came-up with a new gimmick: documentation fees. I live in Maryland where they do not make the fee mandatory. Virginia is a few miles away and all the dealers charge, but somehow change their minds when you tell them "no." The salesperson in many cases is being pressured by a manager to make a deal. You are in control and there really is no pressure. Take everything and bite a little from holdback and they still make money. There are all kinds of hidden fees they profit from, as well.
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Replying to: msiseng (Apr 06, 2006 7:23 pm) I don't have a problem paying a doc fee, nor do I want to spend part of my negotiation time arguing over it. I always try to find out what the dealer's doc fee amount is before I actually go in to negotiate, and then just look at this as part of the car. In other words, if I have decided I am spending $20,000 on a certain car, and the dealer's doc fee is $299, then I offer $19,700 for the car, plus the doc fee. I guess my point is that I won't walk over a doc fee, but I will walk if the total price is more than I want to pay. For the last car I bought, I played dumb when I was talking to the salesman over the phone setting up our appointment. I said something to the effect of "I haven't bought a car in a while, what are the current fees associated?". He proceeded to tell me, "Tax is 3%, new tag and title is $69, and our doc fee is $399." This allowed me to work the $399 into my calculations at home before ever going to the dealership. I was able to structure my price around it, and didn't waste any time haggling over the doc fee. The key is to find out what the dealer's doc fee is before you do your calculations so they don't try to blind side you with it in the finance office. |
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 Regarding a recent used vehicle purchase with a $369.00 Doc Fee... An exerpt from the Arizona Attorney General's Office Website regarding Consumer Fraud and Car Purchases: Be cautious about purchasing aftermarket add-ons or treatments offered by the dealer. Examine the cost and need for such extras and whether you can afford it. Some add-ons are unnecessary or are significantly overpriced, and they may greatly increase the price or cost of your overall financing. Negotiate on an “out-the-door” basis. Explain that you want to know the dealer’s total price, including everything except the costs for which the dealer will send a check to governmental agencies (generally only sales tax and registration and title fees). If you don’t, you’ll likely agree on a price and learn later that it’s the dealer’s “policy” to add fees for “document processing,” weatherproofing, safety inspections, dealer “prep,” destination charges, etc. Copied and reprinted from the Arizona Attorney General's Office Website as Public Information currently available to any consumer. A written response from a local Dealer regarding "Documentation Fee's "The documentation fee is disclosed on the purchase order that all customers sign both during the negotiations and in the business office. The documentation fee represents a fee for services rendered on behalf of a motor vehicle purchaser for preparing, handling, and processing documents pertaining to the closing of a transaction and the subsequent titling of a motor vehicle. This fee is reported and validated with the state, and is mandatory on every car transaction at Dealership Name Undisclosed Here." Vehicle Edge's Viewpoint The "documentary" or "documentation" or "DOC" fee for the above mentioned transaction was in the amount of $369.00. None of the $369.00 was used in the course of titling or registering the vehicle. This is obviously a known problem, and the Attorney General's office clearly states that in the above exerpt. Why isn't anybody doing anything about this common fraud to consumers? To what extent is this fraudulent practice being abused? Consider the following: If this particular dealership sells 250 vehicles per month, and you multiply the $369.00 times the number of vehicles sold, this one dealership has just "scammed" over $92,000.00 from consumers. And that is just one dealership in one month! Yes, this is a serious problem. Reprinted with Permission from www.vehicleedge.com website
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Why isn't anybody doing anything about this common fraud to consumers? To what extent is this fraudulent practice being abused? Well since no law was broken, where's the fraud? I don't agree with documentation fees but if people agree to pay it, they agree to pay it. |
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First off, can't we agree to eliminate the sweeping generalizations and name calling? This serves no purpose, except perhaps boosting the posters ego. I can not think of any occupation that doesn't have its bad apples. And yes, some tactics are inexcusable. I would think the reason automobile dealers resort to various add on's like "Doc Fees", "Mop and Glow", and other such stuff is because buyers think they should pay actual dealer net cost plus a hundred bucks or so for their new $25k set of wheels. An infintesimal gross margin. Any more, and consumers think they are getting ripped off. How did it start? Don't know for sure, but its kind of like the chicken/egg question. Just like any business, they have to find a way to cover expenses to keep the doors open. If they price their merchandise realistically with no add on's, they are not able to compete with the merchants who do have the "after" or "up" charges. So we will have to live with it. But at least we can be civil. I enjoy reading this forum, with both the buyers and sellers input. But I really do think some folks get carried away, and I wonder why the car pro's keep coming back.
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Smart Shopper Documentation Fees
