Last post on Oct 31, 2002 at 5:18 AM
You are in the Maintenance & Repair - Archived Discussions
This discussion is ARCHIVED. To reactivate the discussion, post a request in the Lost? Ask the M&R Host for directions! discussion.
What is this discussion about?
Ford Mustang, Convertible
#15 of 54 Mr. Shiftright
Oct 28, 2002 (10:33 am)
"I think Q45man was saying that a Q45 or Lexus motor is probably built to better tolerance and metallurgy than a Mustang and I would agree with that as being likely."
Key word: "probably". If the Lexus and Infiniti engines are built to better tolerances, then there should be proof of this somewhere. While I don't doubt that the Lexus and Infiniti engines may be built tighter, my point was that the Ford DOHC 4.6L cobra engine is not your average run-of-the mill Ford engine. It is a hand built specialty motor. When you say that the Lexus and Infiniti engines are tighter, I expect proof to back up that claim. For now, it's just speculation based on the image of Ford, Lexus, and Infiniti.
#16 of 54 With over 7,500 cars bought and sold
Oct 28, 2002 (10:40 am)
before I got out of the car business, I can assure you that even though the 4.6 is much better than the old 302/351 design, it bears no quality similarities with Lexus, Toyota, Nissan and Honda engines.
Oct 28, 2002 (10:52 am)
"With over 7,500 cars bought and sold before I got out of the car business, I can assure you that even though the 4.6 is much better than the old 302/351 design, it bears no quality similarities with Lexus, Toyota, Nissan and Honda engines."
How many of those cars were DOHC Cobras with high mileage? We're not talking about the regular 4.6L. While I don't doubt that Lexus and Infiniti motors are tight, I would expect somebody to be able to back up the claim that they are built tighter than the Ford DOHC 4.6L. I don't see how you can "assure" anyone of anything without being able to prove it.
#18 of 54 You guys and your "stats" -
Oct 28, 2002 (11:52 am)
people are funny here. You have people who obviously don't have experience of any significant level in the car business arguing with people with significant experience. You only response is "show me statistics".
How many Cobras are over 100,000 miles? I haven't seen one yet. I hope no one miles up a collectable car like that - that is just wrong.
Oct 28, 2002 (12:01 pm)
I just wanted proof. I don't see how anyone can make a claim like that if they DON'T KNOW. You need to look up the words "speculation" and "fact" in the dictionary. I have worked in the car business. I worked at a service station doing minor work for 6 years while in High School and College. I took automotive mechanics classes in High School. That being said, the experience doesn't qualify me to make statements about engine tolerances on engines that I have never worked on and neither does the experience of buying and selling cars. If someone told me that an Acura 1.8L VTEC motor is tighter than a GM 2.5L "iron duke", I'd take their word for it. This comparison is different. I would not be surprised at all to find out that the Lexus/Infiniti motors are tighter but I just don't know for sure and NEITHER DO YOU.
"How many Cobras are over 100,000 miles? I haven't seen one yet."
#20 of 54 Why are we arguing?
Oct 28, 2002 (2:41 pm)
"I have worked in the car business. I worked at a service station doing minor work for 6 years while in High School and College. I took automotive mechanics classes in High School."
That's experience? I have a Master's Degree in automotive engineering, 10 years in the car business in service and F&I, over 400,000 miles driving for a tow company and 2,800 hours in a race car.
I believe I can tell you that Texus/Infiniti motors are built to tighter specs than a 4.6.
Oct 28, 2002 (3:08 pm)
I wasn't trying to point out that my experience is relevent, just pointing out that I have worked in the automotive business. I KNEW you would say something about that, that's why I said it. My point was that your experience of buying and selling 7500 cars is just as irrelevant as mine. You can rattle off credentials all you want, hell, I could say that I am the Prime Minister of Siberia, this is the internet.
"I believe I can tell you that Texus/Infiniti motors are built to tighter specs than a 4.6."
So I should believe it because you say so? Sorry, it doesn't work that way and please get one thing straight: This is not just a "4.6" we are talking about, it's the 4.6L DOHC. Yes, they are completely different. They don't even share the same block. At best, your comments are YOUR educated guesses, but they are still guesses. Being an automotive engineer, you should know that the words "guess" and "tolerances" should not be used in the same sentence.
BTW, what the heck is someone with a Master's Degree in automotive engineering selling cars anyway?
#22 of 54 You are so wrong, bud.
Oct 28, 2002 (3:41 pm)
I don't sell cars. I haven't sold cars since 1994. I consult for a lawfirm on dealer fraud, lemon law and breach of warranty cases. I tesitify as an automotive expert in automotive repair and maintenance, vehicle appraisal and delaership sales and service policy.
I really don't care if you don't believe me. The hosts here on Edmunds have my curriculum vitae - it's also a matter of court record in PA, NJ and DE.
I am a hardcore Mustang owner - I'm on my 5th one now and will get an '03 Cobra next Spring, after the flurry is over and I can get one at a normal price. I understand the 4.6 Cobra motor. I also know the block casting techniques are no different than that of Ford's other engines.
You were talking about longevity of various makes of vehicles. How do you figure a person with thousands of vehicle appraisals under his belt wouldn't know what lasts and what doesn't? I say he'd better know when he's spending a dealer's money, or he won't have a job for long.
#23 of 54 no need to argue guys---just clarify things a bit....
by MrShift@Edmunds HOST
Oct 28, 2002 (4:05 pm)
Well, look, we can't bust apart engines on line, so forget the argument. You'll just talk to each other until you are blue in the face.
The best "proof" I can offer you isn't proof at all, but history. I've busted apart engines of various types and if I went by the past, a Japanese engine is machined and made to a higher standard than an American engine. There is certainly that "pattern" in my own experience. If you build lots of engines, I would certainly listen to a counterargument--then we'd be on the "same page" regarding experience, or you'd even be ahead of me and I'll respect that. But so far, the professionals I know would, I feel, back me up. Also, I've been appraising cars for almost 20 years, and this experience backs up my assumptions.
Could a certain Ford engine go against this pattern? Sure.Of course. I'm just betting on the odds that it doesn't, but sure. I'm not saying the people at Ford don't know HOW to build a longer-lived (notice I didn't say "better") engine than Lexus, I'm just saying they choose not to, for cost reasons for one thing.
So let's call it "an educated guess" and no more than that. Which is what I meant by a Lexus engine being more "likely" to get to 300K than a Mustang's.
I'd also like to add that some of the world's greatest and most competitive engines would never get to 300K. Long mileage is not a sign of a 'great engine" in my book. I doubt a brand new Ferari engine would ever get near that mileage, and I know that famous engines like the Mercedes Gullwing, Jaguar XKE, etc etc., could barely do 1/3 that.
Last of all, being "hand-built" is not a plus for longevity or a minus. A man only assembles what the machines have made.
Oct 28, 2002 (4:23 pm)
"How do you figure a person with thousands of vehicle appraisals under his belt wouldn't know what lasts and what doesn't?"
You said it yourself. You've never seen a Cobra with that many miles. Cobras with a lot of miles are rare, so how would you know how long the motors last? Have you rebuilt a Lexus, Infiniti, or Ford DOHC V8? How can you compare tolerances between them?
"I also know the block casting techniques are no different than that of Ford's other engines."
The block is aluminum and cast by Teksid of Italy, the same folks that do the Ferrari Formula 1 blocks. The SOHC block isn't. The crank comes from Gertach in Germany. If they are the same, why the need for the experience of these folks?