Last post on May 24, 2013 at 5:06 AM
You are in the Prices Paid - Buying & Leasing Experiences
What is this discussion about?
BMW 3 Series, Sedan, Wagon
#7559 of 11923 328i sedan on order
Apr 01, 2007 (1:09 am)
I just ordered a 328i sedan, and wanted to share my experience. First off, thanks to all of you participating on this forum. I canít imagine I would have done as well as (I think) I did without all the knowledge Iíve gotten from reading this and other forums, like Bimmerfest and e90post.
This will be my fourth BMW, starting with a 1999 323i, then a 2003 325iT, and currently a 2004 X3 (through ED). I bought the last 2 through the same CA at my local dealer. Iíd gotten good, no-hassle deals before, and expected the same this time, especially as a repeat customer. My target, based on what Iíd read online, was Edmunds invoice plus adv. and MACO, plus $500; plus a lease at the buy rate and $625 acq. fee. I would have gone up $500 over that to maintain the relationship with the CA and dealer, and avoid having to shop around. But the offer wasnít close, at $1000 over invoice, $825 acq. fee and buy rate plus .0003. Maybe I was more aggressive this time on the price I was asking for (basically was getting half-way between invoice and MSRP before), and it was the first lease for me (so we werenít negotiating lease terms before), and the last one was an ED. Also, the CA went from being the internet guy to a salesman on the floor, so I donít know if that affected the deal he could offer.
I wanted to get the deal arranged within a week, as the March lease rates on the 328i sedan were good (.00125) and I wanted to lock that in. I sent out 8 email inquiries to 6 Bay Area dealers and 2 others, asking for the above terms. I would have sent out more, but surprisingly, many dealer websites give you no way to correspond just by email (no way to send comments, and they only want to contact you by phone. To me, thatís not ďinternet sales!Ē). In some cases, I got around this by looking at their sales team info to find the internet guy, then emailed him directly.
I got responses from only 4 dealers. One said he could do the $500 over invoice but not the lease terms. One offered $250 over invoice, but gave no lease terms, and didnít respond to my followup email asking for these. One responded but never gave a price.
I ended up ordering the car from Peter Pan BMW in San Mateo. The CA accepted the terms I offered from the start. I met with him on Friday and there were no surprises, his figures matched mine. He had already done a vehicle inquiry in the system and gave me a printout for a car already in production (status 150-production started), configured as I wanted it. The CA was very professional, and the whole thing took only 15-20 minutes. The CA suggested I put a little bit ($100) down, which I did, to lower the payment below $500, to reduce the amount of the security deposits (I planned on doing the 7 additional).
So hereís what I ended up with:
328i sedan, Titanium Silver, grey/walnut, Steptronic, premium, nav, satellite, folding rear seats.
Invoice (including adv. and $400 MACO): $38,645.
Sales price: $39,145 ($2,200 under MSRP)
Lease terms: 30-month, 15k/yr, $100 down, $625 acq. fee, MF .00076 (.00125 - .00049), 66% residual.
Tax rate 7.75%, license $318, tire fee $8.75, doc fee $45.
Monthly payment: $499.56
Drive off: $4982.55 (1st pmt., $4000 sec. deps., $100 down, license and fees, and $11.24 tax (on the $100 and the $45).
Car should arrive in late May. I had originally wanted to do an ED in September to coincide with the Frankfurt auto show, but couldnít due to a work conflict. Instead, Iíll plan on going in 2009. This is why I did the 30-month lease; so the lease would expire in Nov. 2009, around the time Iíd get my next car from a Sept. 2009 ED.
#7560 of 11923 Re: How does this deal sound? [realcrapper]
Apr 01, 2007 (5:09 am)
No need to bow down to me and my trusty TI-83. It's a great little tool that gets the job done. Years ago, I used to teach leasing classes using the TI 83. I would call Texas Instruments and borrow 30 calculators. When they arrived, I would down load my program into the calculators for students to use. The class was a big success and I received very good evaluations. Several students purchased a TI-83. TI should have given me a sales commission!
Unfortunately my schedule wouldn't allow me to continue doing the classes as it requires tons of preparation. Hopefully, I'll be able to resume in a few years. Those w/o programmable calcs are best served by an electronic spreadsheet like Excel. In fact, I've been meaning to create an Excel lease program but just haven't gotten around to it.
I have also written a seven page paper that discusses capitalization and computing sales tax. If you like, send me a private email indicating your email address and I will send it via an attachment. The math is fairly easy to follow which brings me to the following...
Mathematically speaking, you can capitalize anything. I'm from Ohio and have often capitalized security deposits. In fact, my TI 83 is programmed to do it. There is a pause in the calculation where the payment w/o security is shown and it prompts me to indicate the security deposit. Some are rounded up to the next $25 or $50 and so I need to know this criteria beforehand. I have two options at this point; either (1) enter the security deposit if I want it capitalized or (2) enter zero if I don't want it capitalized. It's that simple.
In Ohio, security deposits are not taxable; acquisition fees are taxable and so, as you've indicated, it's important to separate taxable items from non-taxable items.
I can't imagine why a fund provider or state would forbid capitalizing security deposits. It just doesn't make any sense. There certainly isn't anything in the Consumer Leasing Act's Regulation M that would forbid capitalizing the security deposit.
Just to give you an idea, here is a typical scenario for an '07 Acura TSX w/o Nav...
Selling Price 26,700.00
1st Monthís Payment 361.71
Security Deposit 375.00
Acquisition Fee 595.00
Sales Tax 6.00% x 35 x 329.77 = 692.52
Gross Capitalized Cost 28,724.23
Capitalized Cost Reduction 0.00
Adjusted Capitalized Cost 28,724.23
Residual Factor 0.62
Residual Value (Residual Factor ◊ MSRP) 17,831.20
Cost of Money/Term
Money Factor 0.00127
Term (months) 36
Monthly Lease Payment including Sales Tax 361.71
Monthly Lease Payment excluding Sales Tax 340.99
Charges Payable at Lease Origination
License, Title, Registration Fees 50.00
Total Amount Due at Lease Signing 50.00
GAP Coverage Included
Annual Mileage Allowance: 10,000
Disposition Fee: None
Excess Mileage $0.15 per mile
Reg. M Disclosure: NA
The $329.77 payment above is an intermediate calculation and is computed only for the purpose of computing state sales tax. Because acquisition fees are taxable in Ohio, this payment includes the acquisition meaning that the acquisition fee was capitalized. However, the security deposit is not taxable and is excluded from this payment. In good 'ole Ohio, the total payments are taxed and are due at lease inception. Observe that the Ohio sales tax is computed as follows...
0.06 x 35 x 329.77 = 692.52
Note that 35, not 36, appears as a factor. The reason is that the 1st payment of 329.77 was capitalized in the lease and so the remaining 35 payments of 329.77 already include repayment of the first payment (i.e., the first payment is being amortized in the lease).
The calculations can be tricky and it's very easy to make mistakes if you're not careful. I have yet to find a dealer that can correctly make these payment and tax computations much less correctly complete lease agreements. Usually, I have to step them through the process. Some are very cooperative; others resist. I simply won't do business with the latter.
I hope this helps.
PS: I'll be glad to intercede on your behalf if you would prefer that I speak with your dealer about rolling in the security deposit. Maybe they just don't know how to do the calculation!
#7561 of 11923 Re: How does this deal sound? [bmwnb]
Apr 01, 2007 (6:47 am)
Flattery will get you everywhere! I'm just glad that I can help. Check out my post #7560. There, you will find a scenario that can serve as a "checklist". In fact, it can serve as a model for a one page lease proposal. If you would like some assistance in structuring such a proposal and all associated calculations, please send me a private email and I'll be delighted to help you. The beauty of a one page proposal is that it saves time and money. Simply FAX or email it to the dealer and see what shakes!
A good place to start your research, as you know, is right here at edmunds. Check the MSRP, Invoice Pricing, holdbacks, incentives, etc. Your goal should be to arrive at a very competitve and realistic selling price. Selling price is where the story begins. Afterall, every leased car is a sold car. Look for special lease programs at the finance captive websites. Cut and paste the advertisements and study them very carefully. They're often jam packed with useful information. You can determine residuals, residual factors, money factors, etc. NEVER EVER MAKE A DECISION BASED ON PAYMENT ALONE! It can be a deadly mistake!
It's still a good idea to call two or three dealers to confirm the information. Always ask for a decision maker and not an order taker! I always ask them if they know what the hell they're doing... my weak attempt at humor! Now, sometimes dealers will inflate money factors to include reserves. A dealer is compensated by the fund provider for writing a lease at a higher money factor. The compensation, of course, ultimately comes from you. It used to be that dealers collected this compensation over the term of the lease or at lease end. And so the money owed the dealer was held in "reserve". Nowadays, the compensation is paid almost immediately. I always ask for the money factor with 0% reserves. If the dealer insists on say, a 1% reserve level, I simply deduct it from the sell price but I don't tell them. Sneaky huh? Reserves work in much the same way that points do on a mortgage loan. A 1% reserve means the dealer is compensated 1% of the adjusted cap cost (excluding acquisition or bank fees). A fund provider just isn't going to allow a dealer to earn a reserve on their own acquisition fee. So, if the adjusted cap is $25,000 excluding the acquistion fee, a 1% reserve means the dealer earns $250 for writing the lease at the higher money factor.
DO NOT BUY GAP INSURANCE FROM A DEALER... EVER! Check with your insurance carrier. As a rule of thumb, GAP coverage should cost no more that 0.1% of the MSRP annually. So, for an MSRP of $40,000, that means GAP should cost no more than $40 annually. A GAP rider would cover you in the event that your car is totaled. It covers the difference between what the insurance company pays and what you actually owe.
Another important consideration is that after you lease, create a lease amortization schedule just like you would for a mortgage loan. This tracks your outstanding lease balance in case you want to terminate your lease early. You would be shocked at the number of fund providers who seem to have difficulty computing lease balances or payoffs!!! My brother's neighbor leased a jag and he terminated early. The fund provider gave him an inflated lease balance that reflected $700 more than what he actually owed! I'm not talking about excess wear/tear charges either and there were no late charges as this guy always paid early. Too many people place too much faith in the payoff figures given them by their fund providers and that can be a HUGE HUGE MISTAKE!
In any lease transaction, you must do the math correctly. Not knowing how to do the math is the kiss of death in this business! It's like placing a sweet little innocent guppy in a tank with a great white shark. The dealer could swallow you whole and you won't even know it! ALWAYS BE IN CONTROL OF THE DEAL. If you lease often, it would behoove you to educate yourself on leasing. You should be able to do the calculations in your sleep! The payoff (no pun intended) is that you'll be well positioned to negotiate confidently and you won't be afraid to tell a dealer that they're wrong when they're wrong. I have no problem doing it! The problem with me is that I'm like 20 bulls in a china shop; I have ZERO diplomacy.
Should you have questions or concerns, please let me know.
#7562 of 11923 Re: How much should i pay for this private party 06 330I ? [megaphani]
Apr 01, 2007 (7:06 am)
"Not even a single reply,is this exclusively for people leasing only or what ?"
No--but being critical of people for not answering you in two hours doesn't usualy engender replies.
(the price seems too high)
#7563 of 11923 Re: How does this deal sound? [wbb56]
Apr 01, 2007 (8:05 am)
I like your initials wbb... sounds like a radio station!
Okay, much better! You've given me everything I need to navigate successfully! So, let's try to address your concerns. Here is what I have...
'07 BMW 335i sedan
Sell Price 45,755.00
Acquisition Fee 725.00
Gross Cap 46,480.00
Cap Reduction 0.00
Adjusted Cap 46,480.00
Residual (12K miles 63%) 30,110.85
Money Factor 0.00131 (you indicated 0.000131... I think this is inaccurate)
Term 36 months
NC Tax Rate 3.00%
Payment w/o tax 555.03
Tax 3.00% 16.65
Payment with Tax 571.68
Total NC Tax 746.37
Amounts DUE at lease inception...
Security Deposit 4800.00
Doc Fee 99.50
1st Payment 571.68
TOTAL DUE 5,618.17
Note that the 146.99 tax was calculated as follows...
0.03 x (4800 + 99.50) = 146.99
Observe that your security deposit is taxed in NC. However, at lease end, you are entitled to receive a refund of the tax on any returned security deposit...
Other than this caveat, all calculations appear to be spot on.
#7564 of 11923 Re: How does this deal sound? [delta737h]
Apr 01, 2007 (8:52 am)
This is extraordinarily helpful. The idea of walking out the door paying absolutely nothing is very nice. You must have the patience of a Saint if you are willing to walk car salesmen through this. I'm PM'ing you right now, looking forward to reading your paper.
#7565 of 11923 deposit
Apr 01, 2007 (9:04 am)
Why is most post here, folks put money down on lease for? Never put anything down, it's a lease for crying out loud!
I got my 335i sedan msrp of about 45k. My monthly was $589.00 which includes tax. 12k miles a year. With due at signing of $987.00. That includes 1st month, license and registration. No security deposit etc.
#7566 of 11923 Re: deposit [tcn2k]
Apr 01, 2007 (10:18 am)
Your point regarding a down payment (dp) is well taken. Buying or leasing shouldn't matter. If you have lots of equity in your old car, try to sell it! Don't trade it if you can avoid it. When interest rates are low coupled with the fact that a car is a depreciating asset, it quickly becomes a no brainer that a dp is not very prudent. Remember, a car doesn't need to be driven off the lot to be considered "used"... the instant it's titled, it becomes "used"!
Additionally, if you total your car, it's not likely you'll see a return of your down payment.
I will never make a dp whether I buy or lease... it doesn't matter.
#7567 of 11923 Re: kyfdx: Price ? re: 335 Coupe [redbaron96]
Apr 01, 2007 (10:24 am)
Redbaron, What dealer are you working with? I am in South Florida and can't get the dealers to budge off of MSRP. So much demand here they apparently don't need to. So I am trying to find a reasonable dealer in Florida. I am looking at a 335i coupe. Test drove it yesterday.... so sweet. Thanks!
#7568 of 11923 Re: How much should i pay for this private party 06 330I ? [dhanley]
Apr 01, 2007 (11:20 am)
i apologize for being so critical and so impatient. i was in a rush to make a decision, but after some research i found out that its a BMW Trade Assist vehicle and cant be CPO'ed so there it goes.
After toiling in all the BMW forums, i finally decided that Leasing is the way to go for me personally.
so i have to start educating myself about leasing now.