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What is this discussion about?
#119 of 158 rivertown
Sep 28, 2003 (8:47 pm)
No on paper hard data, just my friends' and my own experience (and reports by other users in forums) in negotiating the price of 04 Sienna with various dealers in Toronto, Ontario. 4-5% off MSRP is quite typical without hard negotiations; this compared with the Access pricing's pathetic C$100 to C$200 dollars off MSRP(as of today).
Sep 28, 2003 (10:29 pm)
I can't say for sure, given the standard equpiment variance, but it looks to me like your Access price is very close to US TMV. Since there's a lot of new model hype, both are close to MSRP (US) and, thus, a good negotiator should be able to get a discount when negotiation is possible (non-Access price).
Give the closeness to TMV, it's hard to say Access price is out of line with 'true market'.
When I looked at Carolla numbers, the relationship to TMV seemed even better under Access; and MSRP was lower than in the US, close to US invoice if I remember right.
I suspect 'fat dealer margins' is an over-simplification.
The hot new model thing with the Sienna is an issue, too. Wanna run the numbers on a Tacoma?
Sep 29, 2003 (3:19 am)
please read the related thread about gray market imports. This other thread gives alot of background info and discusses alot of the issues that are now cropping up in this thread.
traditionally canadian msrp is pretty close to US invoice prices. car makers just price their product lower in canada. they say it is because of all the taxes they pay and a lower amount of take home pay, etc. with other makes and with toyota before access pricing the canadian buyer could and does negotiate just like they do here in the US. So most buyers can get hundreds or thousands (CDN) less than MSRP(CDN). This is just like in the US. if the car is a hot seller, it is harder to negotiate off msrp, if it is a dog, the price quickly plummets. So fair market value in canada is far lower than tmv or invoice in the US.
By saying that access pricing appears to be fair market value because it is close to US TMV or invoice is comparing apples and oranges. Canadians traditionally pay less than their american counterparts for the exact same vehicle, after conversion to a std currency.
A better comparison is to see what toyotas sold for in Canada ,average, before access pricing and what they sell for now with access pricing. I bet that data would be very hard to find and I am also pretty willing to bet that the access price is higher than the old price. So I have to go with lekn here.
No one has yet given a good explanation of why toyota went to access pricing except for the "hooey" off of their website. Until canadians stop buying toyotas in significant numbers, then access pricing will stay. Personally I would exclude toyota based on this one fact, even if they had the best car in the world. I did this for a while in the US based on toyotas overly high prices in the past and poor dealer attitude. Their are plenty of other good alternatives.
Sep 29, 2003 (7:21 am)
I really oughta read that thread, looks like.
The only Canadian non-'Yoda I've checked was for the model I own, a Honda Si. MSRP was the same as US, CAD$ converted to USD$. So, I have been having trouble getting the gripe.
If there is this kind of price spread Access-nonAccess, that would put me off Toyota, too. I'm already put off pretty much by the distributer mark-up and option package hooey US 'Yoda buyers face.
I do understand there's a difference 'tween the two markets, having lived near the border as a teen and then again in my mid-20's. What I found then was that consumer goods indeed had cheaper list prices in Canada - with a corresponding drop in finish detail and/or manufacturing complexity. The old 'you get what you pay for' thing, with the Canadian market suiting my taste better by emphasizing durability, quality materials, and price over finish glitz.
The market forces you and Grand mention (taxes and income) do affect price from the demand side. There's a limit, though, on price elasticity; and with cars, the cost of production and distribution presents a huge limit on downside movement. Getting good data seems to be very tough, which provides a great medium for hooey cultivation - by folks on all sides of the argument.
So, all in all I've been unconviced that Access pricing represents a hijacking of the market, that in spite of my overweening skepticism for car dealers. I do have a profound respect for market theory, applied with intellectual honesty, however; and what I'd like to see are some more real life numbers with comparisons between comparable cars. So far, what I've seen is comparable cars selling for approximately the same prices in both markets with Toyota MSRP and discounts being jacked up in the US.
The gray market thread is in which forum?
Sep 29, 2003 (7:30 am)
There is no point in comparing the US market with the Canadian market in this case. A more valid comparison is the Ontario and other non-Access pricing Canadian markets (probably 3-5% below MSRP on average) and Access pricing markets ($100-$300 below MSRP).
#124 of 158 Comparison for Access pricing
Sep 29, 2003 (8:52 am)
makes more sense if you narrow it down to dealers who implement Access pricing and those who don't under the same economic circumstances (income level, taxation level, currency, etc).
So if a customer can buy a vehicle at $X dollars in Quebec (Access) while another across the border in Ontario (non-Access) can buy the same exact model for $X - 1000 dollars, this is clearly a "fat dealer margin" at work here.
What I would like to see is for Toyota to have both Access and non-Access dealers in each province, so consumers can choose which to deal with. Here in British Columbia, all the dealers are Access, and there's no way they are willing to negotiate (spoken to 3 dealers). One of the sales person even told me that if they do, unfavorable circumstances might befall them, like "OK, you can go work for Honda now, after you are done this deal." Which I think is ridiculous.
As for different prices in Canada compared to the States, well the prices in Canada for cars have always been cheaper. Don't ask me why, but I would have to think that on average Canadians make less than Americans (even before you factor in the exchange). So a Toyota sold under Access which is same price as US TMV doesn't mean a whole lot to Canadians who are used to buying prices equivalent to US invoice.
I guess the only way Access dealers can negotiate is their finance and lease rate. I most recently saw an ad for 1.9% financing on Siennas. Just wait till the '05 Odyssey comes out next year.
Sep 29, 2003 (9:10 am)
kcram "Gray Area" Sep 4, 2002 6:02pm
It has over 200 posts, but some good reading.
If you search for "gray" you will see two other threads with some posts that the hosts made for news articles relating to this area. Hope this helps some.
Sep 29, 2003 (9:41 am)
So, the Access-nonAccess price spread is 'probably' $900-$1500 CAD$ on a Sienna, on average, and $450-$750 on a 'Rolla?
Though that's certainly a noticeable gouge, my take is that's about the size of the bite US distributors take without many folks noticing at all.
The point in comparing US and Canadian market prices, for me, is to get a read on where, how, and how much profit gouging takes place. For the life of me, I can't see any reason that build/distribution costs should be significantly different between our markets. Overall, average selling prices appear marginally lower in Canada with dealers getting a proportionally larger bite from a slightly smaller profit pie.
I hope it doesn't look like I'm defending Access pricing. I'm trying to understand the market dynamics. FWIW, it looks to me like regional monopoly (distributors) in the US costs consumers more than Access pricing in Canada. Neither is good, IMO; and both reveal fundamental intellectual dishonesty when suppliers talk about 'the market'.
#127 of 158 Thanks again, Mass
Sep 29, 2003 (9:42 am)
Sep 29, 2003 (10:16 am)
Another avenue for negotiating under Access price conditions is to negotiate trade-in value.