Last post on Dec 09, 2013 at 4:01 PM
You are in the Prices Paid - Buying & Leasing Experiences
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Honda Pilot, Car Buying, SUV
Feb 21, 2013 (7:34 am)
Reading Edmunds, I've calculated the following dealer cost for a 2013 Honda Pilot Touring 2WD:
Base MSRP: $39,670
Total MSRP: $40,500
Base Invoice: $36,258
Total Invoice: $37,088 (confirmed by dealers)
Dealer Holdback (2% of based MSRP per Edmunds): $793
Incentives (Dealer Cash per Edmunds): $500
Dealer Cost = [Total Invoice] - [Incentives] - [Dealer Holdback]
Dealer Cost = $37,088 - $500 - $793
Dealer Cost = $35,795
So if Dealer Cost is nearly $35,800 then why are multiple dealers wanting to sell this car to me for $35,000 w/o negotiation? I don't believe for a second they are losing any money since dealers are also willing to sell the car for $35,000 even if they have to get it from another dealership (clearly implying their cost is significantly below $35k to justify the sales commision and the transport cost).
(1) What are the additional incentives?
(2) Why isn't Edmunds reporting these incentives?
#15343 of 15566 Re: Dealer Cost [pastready2buy]
Feb 21, 2013 (7:55 am)
You will not be able to figure out the "true" cost of the vehicle to the dealer.
For starters, the MSRP is a phony number. It is inflated so that Dealers have room to negotiate.
If Dealers are willing sell for $35,000, then your offer should be lower.
Test the market the dealer by offering a lower price. When they say no, you know you are at or below Dealer cost.
There are seasonal incentives which are not published. Edmunds or any other site would not know about them.
Feb 21, 2013 (9:08 am)
Agreed. I'd expand to say MSRP and Invoice are both phony numbers simply used to anchor the price negotiations. In my experience, dealer reps regularly provide false information. I'm willing to say they are ill informed / out of the loop, but that's probably not the case will every one.
I'd also say the manufacturers and dealers have already adapted to sites like Edmunds, TrueCar, etc by making the "holdback" a phony number as well.
My guess is, these days, the core margin is probably hidden in the financing and volume incentives which are all pretty much back of house and the information is not shared with folks on the sales floor (plausible deniability).
Further, I'd say the plausible deniability / principal-agent tactic extends up above the dealer to the manufacturer and the only way to call them out is through mass education through forums like this...
Anyways, on the Piloteers forum someone reported purchasing a 2013 Pilot Touring 4WD for $35,250 in the middle of the month. Using this logic (around 16-16.5% off MSRP), I would think the following would be rough target prices for new 2013 Pilots (inclusive of destination and dealer fees):
Touring 4WD: ~$35,250 + TT&L
Touring 2WD: ~$33,800 + TT&L
EX-L 4WD w/ RES: ~$32,600 + TT&L
EX-L 4WD: ~$31,250 + TT&L
EX-L 2WD w/ RES: ~$31,250 + TT&L
EX-L 2WD: ~$30,000 + TT&L
Can anyone provide facts why this wouldn't be reasonable?
Feb 21, 2013 (2:18 pm)
The Pilot is getting a bit long in the tooth and it's poor fuel economy combined with the recent run up in gas prices will force better pricing / incentives by Honda. Remember, auto manufacturers have tremendous fixed overhead so even if they slow down their production lines, the fixed costs get amortized over a lower unit volume which kills profitability.
The only people at the dealer who know what kind of rebates they get are the owner, general manager and CFO.
If you currently have a Honda product on lease and can hold on for a couple of months, prices will come down. Note Honda Financial will let you extend the lease for up to 12 months or any portion thereof.
Feb 24, 2013 (4:39 pm)
Live in TX, so main market here is 2WD, but seeking a 4WD.
Will I do better in the end buying from a dealer in North and shipping it, or picking it up and driving it home?
Any advice much appreciated.
#15347 of 15566 Re: 2013 Honda Pilot 2WD - EX-L [azjigs]
Feb 25, 2013 (8:48 am)
Hi. I am purchasing in Phoenix. Can you tell me the dealer you used? Did you have a trade in? I do not want leather but instead want 4WD? How do you think this would affect the price?
#15348 of 15566 Bought Yesterday
Feb 25, 2013 (10:58 am)
I tried going through the PENFED car buying service to see if I could get better pricing than the edmunds internet dealer method and I was successful in getting slightly better pricing ~$200 cheaper, and the 0.49% 48 month term financing. I did not receive contact back from the PENFED preferred dealerships beyond the initial certificate stating "dealership will provide price" on 2 out of 3 dealerships and the third quoted $31,56x.xx for the 2WD EX-L. When I initiated contact by calling the closest of the 2 dealers that did not provide their price, the internet manager quoted me $32,xxx which was much more than the edmunds quotes I received from 2-3 weeks ago ~31,7xx. I forwarded the lowest price via PENFED quote to the closest dealer who had maintained contact with me through my initial request through edmunds, and he was able to match the price and had the vehicle combination that I wanted in stock. Price negotiation was completed online at this point so the wife and I went in and signed the paperwork and left with the vehicle we wanted (with a full tank of gas) at 0.9% Honda financing. Sales price was $31,56x before $80 documentation fee, taxes, DMV, etc. Wife also wanted the dealer installed alarm which was thrown in at 'dealer cost' of $399 which we hope to recoup in lower insurance premiums (alarm has ignition kill and vibration sensors to detect break-in and includes 3-year GAP insurance free; I need to look into the details, but wife was convinced and it was cheap enough). Internet salesman mentioned there was some better incentives in the last month, including the 0.9% financing (from 1.49%?), and possible higher dealer hold backs, etc. Since we are not privy to the details I just nodded my head and was glad I got a good enough price.
I am also following up to see what kind of perks I can get from the dealership such as free oil changes, car washes, tune-ups, but at this point I may be too late as the sale is already complete. The only card I have left to play is salesman feedback which I hope to use for free vouchers for first services.
#15349 of 15566 2013 Pilot EX 2WD
Mar 01, 2013 (6:50 pm)
I reviewed this site frequently when I was making a decision to buy a Pilot and wanted to share my experience. I want to thank everyone who has taken time to contribute previous because the information truly did help.
First off, I live in Central Kentucky near Lexington. I was interested in a 2WD Pilot because I would not need it for any heavy lifting and would take the extra MPG and 2k drop in price. I also had no desire to visit dealerships and do the old fashion all day back and forth haggling.
We started by taking a test drive in a Pilot and getting a card from a local sales person. He was pleasant and helped answer all our questions, so I planned on giving him a chance to earn our business. I also wanted a local contact.
I kept an eye on the cars at cars.com. I watched prices for about 2 months. When the price of a pilot dropped below 28,500 I told myself I would inquire. Well, one dropped to 28,243. The dealership was in Chattanooga, TN, which was 200 miles away. I didn't really want to drive there, but if they saved me $500 or more I would do it. I called and asked about the vehicle and the drop in pricing. The dealership told me they did not negotiate and that is how they offer a competitive price. The drop in pricing occurs after a vehicle was on the lot for a certain number of days. The final quoted price was $30, 170 OTR (27650 car, 100 warranty, 600 Dealer fees, 1700 tax, and 120 business tax). I was told they could offer me tax in my home stated since it was an internet deal (6% vs 9.5%). At the end of the conversation they told me to call back because they recognized the distance I would have to travel and would compete with any offer. (There goes there no haggle guarantee) I must say that the individual I talked to was fantastic. Wanted to help sell the car, but not pushy.
Next I sent a quote request through Edmunds. I got quotes from 4 local dealers for prices that were no where close to the Chattanooga dealership quote. Actually, only one dealership quoted me on a 2WD Pilot EX and it was 2k or more off. The rest sent me anything from an LX to Touring quotes. The quote request was not helpful at all. All it really got me was salespeople calling my phone for a week straight. I was not able to answer and a voice message was left each time. After the week, I stopped getting calls.
A day later I called the local dealership salesperson (that I test drive with from a few months ago). I told him I had a quote from a dealer and wanted to give him the chance to beat it. I gave him the quote and he asked how much he needed to beat it by...50, 100. So I knew there was room to go down, but I didn't think that quickly and was just excited about not driving 200 miles away. I said to just beat it. He called back in 5 minutes, offered 30,100 OTR and I took it. I didn't find out about the breakdown until afterwards. Probably could have gotten it for a few hundred less, but I'll trade it for the back and forth haggling. Here is the breakdown (27,975 car, 450 dealer fees, 1675 tax). The $830 destination fee is include with the price of the car for both dealerships.
So, you can see I actually paid $300 more for the local car, but my OTR price was lower. I'll not worry too much about that. I don't feel like I made the "deal of the year," but I don't feel like I was robbed blind either.
FYI - I've had the Pilot for 2 weeks and it's done well with gas. 500 miles so far and I'm getting 20 MPG with mostly city driving. The MPG went up from 19 to 21 after the first fill-up and pretty much the same type driving. I'd guess I've gone 60 miles highway and the rest city. After the horror stories others have about getting 14-16 MPG, I'm pleased. The Pilot has been great so far and I look forward to many years of comfort.
Hope this helps and good luck to future buyers.
#15350 of 15566 2013 Honda Pilot EX-L 4WD with Navigation
Mar 03, 2013 (6:05 am)
I read and read and many forums and couldn't find what I am looking for. I live in N.J. And just purchased a 2013 Honda Pilot EX-L 4wd with Navigation. I was told that most dealers do NOT add roof racks to the vehicle but they did. So the truck came with roof racks and 1 year maintance. I then added the maintance plan 75,000 miles or 60 months and the vehicle service contract for a combined price of $1,307. The sales paper also sales Nitrogen at the top for $59.99. I didn't have an option with that. So my paper reads PRICE OF UNIT $ 34,100, DEALER INSTALLED OPTIONS : INC 1yr/ 12k MAINTENCE policy ** price includes appearance package** Nitrogen $59.99 VSC AND/OR MAINTENCE PLANS $1,307.00. Then all the taxes, fees, registration.
My flat out simple question is, Did I get a decent price? I would like to think so, but I need some feedback. I am not sure how this works, do people reply or can people email me. Any information would be helpful. Thank you.
#15351 of 15566 2013 Pilot EX-L 4WD Price
Mar 11, 2013 (11:32 am)
I did my homework...MSRP: $37,450...Invoice: $34,306...2% Holdback: $750...Mfg2Dlr Incentive: $800
So I figure the "dealer cost" to be around $32,750 for base EX-L 4WD with no accessories...
KBB says fair price $34,709, Edmunds says $34,846, TrueCar Avg says $33,500...
So I've got a good feeling about where to start so I end up where I want to be...
But, TrueCar kicks back a $32,606 certificate from Dayton dealer (which I confirm), which is less than the invoice minus the holdback and incentive. I also get a certificate for $34,106 from Cincy dealer...I call Cincy dealer and without even giving my name, she quotes (and follows with email) $32,800...so I think, "Okay, 32 and change should be fair."
I email another Dayton Dealer and tell him I'm looking to add running boards (~$800) and door edge (~$150) installed. He comes back with $32,457, which is what I expected to pay without the accessories!
All quotes are in writing, all include destination, and doc fees are comparable for all dealers. And according to TrueCar, I'm off the scale to the left of "below market." Not one recorded sale at this price.
I'm missing something.