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Shifty, I need your help!

141 messages,  Last post on Oct 22, 2012 at 6:38 AM

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What is this discussion about? Ford Mustang, Coupe

Messages Page 1 of 14

#1 of 141 by judas

Jul 29, 2002 (11:03 pm)

First of all, this probably should get shoved in with another thread, probably under another topic, and for that I apologize.

Second, I just want to say that I've been on Edmunds Town Hall off and on for quote a while (4 years or so?) and I've been extremely impressed with both your general automotive knowledge and especially your quick, logical, accurate assessments of present and future used and classic car values. I've lost track of the number of times I've referred people to you and this board when checking on car prices.

Third, I've got a big fat problem. Not so much a problem but a general disillusionment with the current state of affairs when it comes to used Mustang prices.

About 2 or 3 weeks ago I decided it was time to get another toy, having been without one for several years due to the financial oppression inflicted upon me by college. So now I've got a little money and I want to have a little fun. I decide I want something I can drive on the weekends and take to the local drag strip without being embarassed. I decide on a Fox Body Mustang because of their modability, low price, and the fact that I've helped two of my friends do complete teardowns and rebuilds so I know quite a bit about the mechanics, and they owe me some help.

So I start poking around eBay, autotrader, stangnet and the Corral. Much to my dismay I see most of the asking prices seem to have been decided on after a hard night of heavy illicit drug use. To put it bluntly, these people are on crack (Can I say that here?). Let me give you an example or twelve:

http://www.corral.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=134955

Problem 1: LX Hatches are probably the LEAST desirable Mustang
Problem 2:Who knows how many miles are on this car. Many people selling Mustangs seem to think if its got a newer engine and a coat of paint then it doesn't matter if its got 250K miles on it and a salvage title.
Problem 3: 347 strokers are notorious, as is obvious from reading the ad and one of the replys, for oiling problems and the extreme rod angles are considered by most to be a very bad idea for anything other than a purpose built drag idea.

And the guy is asking 10,500 dollars for it.

Heres another:

http://www.corral.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=139464

122K miles and its an ex-highway patrol car. The patrol car package carries a small list of desirable options but it also carries with it the knowledge that this car was probably beat to hell for 118 of those 122 thousand miles. Plus the damn thing still has the spotlight and the pushbar on it. Who in their right mind wants anything to do with those?

It gets worse:

http://www.corral.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=132765

1989 5.0 Coupe. Certainly a nice paint job. Nice long list of repairs, which IMO doesn't really add to its value, just keeps it from being lower. Lower than average miles. Mostly stock. 10,000 friggin dollars!

Shifty, my wants are simple. I'm not looking for an ultra low mileage pristine one owner car. All I want is a 89-91 5.0 Coupe with a 5 speed in decent condition with under 100K miles for $4,000 or less. Preferably 3,500 or less. Am I wrong in thinking that that shouldn't be at all difficult to find? Or are they right and any Mustang that doesn't have a salvage title or over 150K miles is automatically worth at least 5 grand?

I've always been under the impression that the absolute BEST you're ever going to do selling a modified car is average retail plus 50% of the price of the parts, assuming the mods were done well and that you get back none of the cost of labor. And thats absolute best. In most cases its going to be more like 25%, if not less, if not negative in some case (I personally wouldn't buy any 302 stroker, or anything that has nitrous on it, or anything that has aftermarket forced induction, not that I really have anything against any of these things, I just think theres a good change that you'll be taking someone elses problem of their hands and paying them for it).

So what do you think? Am I wrong, or are they?

Please, restore my faith in the world of used cars.

#2 of 141 by chris396

Jul 30, 2002 (12:53 am)

Most Mustangs have been rode hard and put away wet. It?s getting hard to find an unmolested example. I just sold my '92 5.0 convertible with 76K miles for $6,800 a couple months ago. It took me two weeks to sell it. I think you should find what you're looking for but it's just going to take a little more time than the normal used car buy.
 
My cousin races a 5.0 that has 250K miles. The engine has never been apart.

#3 of 141 I just sold an '86... by andys120

Jul 30, 2002 (7:03 am)

5-liter (stock) convertible with a full load of options and 82k miles for $2,900.
 
It was on the market for quite a while. The only serious drawback to this car was it needed a new top about $1400).
 
I was unhappy with the price I got but then again it's nearly 30% of what I paid for it in 1990.
That makes it the best used car I ever bought, FWIW.

#4 of 141 some thoughts by MrShift@Edmunds HOST

Jul 30, 2002 (9:16 am)

I think what you are asking are really a number of questions merged into one.
 
First of all, "asking prices" can be simply and clearly defined as this:
 
"Asking prices are an exercise in First Amendment Rights".
 
Other than that, they have little value in determining what the market really is.
 
It is ONLY the paid price that counts, and we, as spectators, often cannot know from the asking price what the car actually sells for:
 
So your question really might be:
 
Why do people ask so much more than published book values?
 
Two answers to that I think:
 
1. They expect the market to bail them out for money perhaps foolishly spent, or for lots of repairs they did.
 
2. They do not know the market, or don't care about the market, and may not even want to sell the car. If they wanted to sell it, they'd price it realistically. So they are perhaps trolling for naive buyers. Well, fine, it's a free country (more or less).
 
Another glitch in answering your question comes up when cars are heavily modified, because you can't really use the published price guides.
 
How well was the work done?
Are these quality parts and materials?
 
As you can see from the above, two modified cars of identical miles and year could vary wildly in price depending on how the work was done.
 
LAST of all, you are shopping for what everyone else wants--- a cheap, well cared for 5.0 that hasn't been beat to death. Given that most have, and given that even being well cared for these cars are not god's most durable machines in terms of body, trim, suspension (after all, they were not expensive cars when built), I'd say you have a long search on your hands.
 
With a car like this, my advice is always the same: find the best car you can afford and buy it. Don't buy a beater to fix up, you go to your grave trying to get your money out of it.
 
But people will always buy the best from you when it comes time to sell.

#5 of 141 Judas, I feel your pain by rosch

Jul 30, 2002 (4:29 pm)

I agree that the market for decent 5.0 Mustangs seems crazy. A couple of years ago, a guy I worked with was going to seel his 87 or 88 GT hatch. It was a nice enough car; 98k one owner miles, auto trans, never wrecked. He asked my opinion on what to ask for it. I said $3500 to $4000. He asked $5500. And got it within a month. And he didn't even advertise, he just parked along the road.
 
Anyway, I too would love to have a 5.0, but I'm discouraged by the prices I see. My thoughts are to look for a convertible. Oddly enough, they don't really seem to bring higher prices than any of the closed models, and they seem more common.
 
Also, the 94-95 cars are the same basic platform, as I'm sure you are aware. Prices for those cars seem to be still be set by the used car market.
 
Always remember: 5.0 Mustangs are not rare. Ford built a million of them (literally). Your car is out there if you're patient enough to find it.

#6 of 141 Mr_Shiftright for President!!!! by parm

Jul 30, 2002 (6:37 pm)

I couldn't agree more with your points 1 & 2. And, as always, your analogy to the 1st Amendment is absolutely spot on - hence, the Presidential reference .
 
There are a lot of parallels between appraising classic cars (as you do) and appraising commercial real estate (as I do). Some market participants just don't get it. I'll look at the listing prices of other comparable properties. But, what I generally hang my hat on is what similar properties actually SOLD for.
 
Also, some classic car owners will bring up their car's "insured value" as a basis for determining it's "market value". That's a false comparison. For most classic cars (at least the one's I can afford), these two terms are not synonymous.

#7 of 141 by MrShift@Edmunds HOST

Jul 30, 2002 (8:09 pm)

I see many inflated appraisals, which is stupid because the insurance company will not pay it, or even write a policy on it. They aren't fools either you know.
 
The coupes are probably worth close to the convertibles because really the coupes are a much nicer car to drive. The 5.0 convertible chassis are pretty loose by modern standards and hitting a rough patch at high speed can be quite a shock. Welded in frame stiffeners would help (I don't like the bolt-in types).
 
But hell, if a tight clean one is $5,500 and a rattier car is $4,000, go for the expensive one even if the price seems high. It won't seem so after you've spent lots of money trying to square away a neglected car.
 
Mustangs of this era suffer the same fate as MGBs used to. They end up in the hands of young people without a lot of money except in those rare cases.

#8 of 141 by chris396

Jul 31, 2002 (1:44 am)

Even with full-length welded subframe connectors my1992 Mustang GT felt a lot less solid than my 1969 Camaro RS SS does. I had to replace the top on mine when I bought it. I paid $700 total including materials and labor.

#9 of 141 by MrShift@Edmunds HOST

Jul 31, 2002 (8:11 am)

There are a number of somewhat famous coupes that are worth more than their convertible counterparts:
 
'63 Corvette Split Window Coupe
Mercedes Gullwing coupe
 
I think this trend will continue for certain types of cars once collectors become more and more aware that the coupe version of a particular car has driving advantages over the flip top.
 
In europe for instance, they do not usually vintage race the cabriolet variants, they race only the coupes, so there you may find higher prices for the coupes as well.

#10 of 141 Where were all those people paying hot prices for 5-0 Stangs... by andys120

Jul 31, 2002 (12:44 pm)

when I was trying to sell my convertible? It took longer than I thought and I had to accept less than book.
 
This was a clean, unmodified, adult-driven car with relatively low mileage.

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