- #859 of 1765
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Re: $2000 Tax Credit [john1701a]
by gagrice
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Jul 22, 2004 (12:52 pm)
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Replying to: john1701a (Jul 22, 2004 8:00 am)
That bill is still in Congress it was sponsored by Rep. Dave Camp, R-Midland, in 2001. They have whittled the incentives down to save money. It has nothing to do with the Administration. The only tax credits I know of are on all electric cars. So you can buy a golf cart and use it to go get groceries. Maybe it will get passed yet this session. In time for the huge influx of hybrids and diesel cars.
http://www.detnews.com/2003/business/0311/18/c01-328385.htm
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- #860 of 1765
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Re: $2000 Tax Credit [gagrice]
by john1701a
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Jul 22, 2004 (1:56 pm)
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Replying to: gagrice (Jul 22, 2004 12:52 pm)
Actually, there were several. There was a tax CREDIT that got dropped. And there was the renewal of the existing DEDUCTION that was allowed to sunset.
And yes, the current administration was involved with those.
JOHN
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- #861 of 1765
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Re: $2000 Tax Credit [john1701a]
by misterme
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Jul 22, 2004 (3:48 pm)
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Replying to: john1701a (Jul 22, 2004 1:56 pm)
"And yes, the current administration was involved with those"
John, are you looking for a good political debate?
I would suggest that this forum is not the place for political topics or jabs, especially given the election year and firey potential.
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- #862 of 1765
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Let's stay away from politics
by Sylvia STAFF
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Jul 22, 2004 (8:06 pm)
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it's a slippery slope...
Thanks
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- #863 of 1765
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Synthetic Tranny Fluid for 5-speed 2004 HCH
by larsb
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Jul 23, 2004 (11:45 am)
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Has anyone replaced their own tranny fluid? If so or even if not,
does anyone know the capacity of the tranny case, i.e. how much fluid
I need to buy to refill it if I drain it myself?
Thanks...
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- #864 of 1765
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Re: some answers, some agreements [spdracr]
by stevecheme
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Jul 30, 2004 (2:07 pm)
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Replying to: spdracr (Jul 16, 2004 11:12 pm)
This is a warning to all considering a hybrid car. If you are into hybrids purely for green reasons that's wonderful. But if you think you will save money, you may be deluding yourself. You must consider overall cost of ownership. The Honda Civic is a wonderful model to illustrate this because it comes from a conventional power-train family. So if we assume a first owner service life of 100,000 miles, then the 10 mpg boost in efficiency from 32mpg for standard to 42mpg from hybrid, you will save only 744 gallons of gas over this owners useful service. Gasoline prices are unpredictable, but baring a Middle-East war we are not going to see more than $3.00/gallon in next 5 years. So savings on fuel is about $2231 maximum. Since this trickles in over time, if you do a time value of money adjustment the future savings is probably only worth about $1800 in your pocket now (net present value). With the 2000 tax deduction (not credit) you will save 2000 times your tax rate (let us say 30% bracket) So we have a typical savings of 600 bucks at tax time and $1800 fuel savings for a total of $2400. Now lets be honest and compare the creature comfort/performance of the HCH with its siblings. You will be forced to admit it is fare less desirable than its top of the line Civic siblings. So what your get is typical of the low end of the Civic line which is valued at fare less than the HCH price less $2400 savings. Now add in the more expensive maintenance, maintenance only by HONDA, more fragile technology. And the highest risk of all, those high cycling batteries are not going to last the full 100,000 miles and they won't be cheap to replace! Enjoy the green on the trees because it ain't going to be in your wallet when your done. But I am glad someone is doing the field research.
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- #865 of 1765
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Re: some answers, some agreements [stevecheme]
by larsb
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Jul 30, 2004 (3:02 pm)
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Replying to: stevecheme (Jul 30, 2004 2:07 pm)
I agree with you on most points, but on the "creature comfort/performance" issue, I think you missed the mark. The HCH compares VERY favorably with the top of the line EX model of standard gas-powered Civic. In fact, there's not much of anything you can get for an EX that is not available for the HCH:
Split folding seatback is one thing the HCH does not offer, but REALLY, how many times is that feature ever used? I have had two cars with that feature and cannot remember using it more than once or twice if that much. Stick your item out the side window like 90% of other car owners are required to do if it's too big for the trunk.
The engine is slightly less powerful on the HCH - but who buys a civic as a hot rod? The 16-24 age group "ricers" are the only ones who might.
Rear seat cupholders are not available on the 2004 HCH - so I put in a $10 plastic console for my kids to use back there.
Radio antenna on the HCH is mounted on the roof and not in the back glass - big whoop.
Moonroof not avail for the HCH - another big whoop. Moonroofs are notorious for leaking, breaking, letting in heat - who needs the hassles?
Other than those minor items, the HCH and the EX compare quite well.
And another item is that the "premium" price paid for the Hybrid WILL come back to you at resale time - the history of cars in America shows that if a model in a car line (DX, LX, EX) SELLS for more when new, it will thus similarly sell for a higher amount at resale and/or trade-in time. A 2000 LX will not bring as much as a 2000 EX, right? Thus it stands to logic that a 2004 EX will not bring as much at resale as a 2004 Hybrid.
And how does anyone know that Hybrid technology is "more fragile?" That's just a guess, not based on anything factual.
The "long run" money savings are not that enticing in terms of quantity of dollars, but Popular Mechanics did a cross country trip with a gas Civic and an HCH and put a Hybrid at 1 cent per mile cheaper gas wise. That's not much, but a penny saved is a penny earned, is it not?
And who can put a price on the feeling one gets at every red light when YOUR car shuts off the gas engine and does not sit there and pollute while idling like 99% of the rest of the cars on the road?
So I would advise someone NOT to buy a Hybrid if their SOLE GOAL is to save MONEY - but some things are more important than money, like thousands of cars polluting less PER MILE, which the Hybrid does over every non-hybrid out there.
mytwocents.....
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- #866 of 1765
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Re: some answers, some agreements [larsb]
by gagrice
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Jul 30, 2004 (3:19 pm)
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Replying to: larsb (Jul 30, 2004 3:02 pm)
Those are both good arguments. My gripe is when I went pricing the HCH the dealer had tacked on a $1000 premium because he could. To me that is like Starbucks charging $5 for water in NY on 9/11. If someone is willing to go the extra mile to do their part to save our air. And the Auto dealers are cashing in on those special cars some one should be screaming. And it is worse with the 2004 Toyota Prius. I have heard of markups as high as $5000 over MSRP. In my mind that is criminal.
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- #867 of 1765
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Re: some answers, some agreements [gagrice]
by stevedebi
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Jul 30, 2004 (3:23 pm)
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Replying to: gagrice (Jul 30, 2004 3:19 pm)
Actually, if you find a dealer charging over MSRP, report them to Toyota corporate. I saw an article that said the Toyota dealers are not allowed to charge over MSRP. (it was in an article describing Prius increased production).
So go get them in trouble!
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- #868 of 1765
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Re: some answers, some agreements [gagrice]
by larsb
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Jul 30, 2004 (3:27 pm)
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Replying to: gagrice (Jul 30, 2004 3:19 pm)
OH that is ABSOLUTELY correct - we have a dealer here in Phoenix, LARRY MILLER TOYOTA, who was and may still be (I know this for a fact because my former roommate bought one with the markup) to be charging $3000-$5000 over sticker as a premium on the 2004 Pruis, JUST to line their fat-cat pockets. I *DO* think that is criminal and should be prosecuted as theft. Bullcrap on that "the market supports the price so we can charge it" argument. Another dealer, BIG TWO TOYOTA, was selling them AT STICKER, no mark up. Bravo for them !!!
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