Engine Sludge/Oil Gelling--Toyota's Customer Response - READ ONLY

877 messages, Last post on May 09, 2002 at 5:24 AM

You are in the Maintenance & Repair - Archived Discussions Forum. Your Host is mr_shiftright

This discussion is ARCHIVED. To reactivate the discussion, post a request in the Lost? Ask the M&R Host for directions! discussion.

What is this discussion about? Toyota, Lexus, Engine, Oil, Coupe, Convertible, Sedan, SUV

OPEN FORUM--All invited! Please Ask Questions One At A Time and Be Patient For A Response.

Outline

Messages Page 87 of 89: 1; ...; 83; 84; 85; 86; 87; 88; 89; Prev; Next; Last

#853 of 877 In parting, my 2 cents worth by jethrog35 May 03, 2002 (7:00 pm)
In spite of this recent debacle, the world would be a much better place if everyone made cars to the standard that Toyota/Lexus does. I tip my hat to Toyota.
#854 of 877 Stealth1969 by stl66 May 03, 2002 (8:13 pm)
How many miles were on your Sienna when you first had the sludge problem? What kind of maintenance did you do?
#855 of 877 I still would like to know why I had to sign a release? by catgem May 03, 2002 (9:05 pm)
I will call and try to find out.....it just seems weird, in light of the new policy, which covers everyone....
#856 of 877 Back to Basics by spokane May 03, 2002 (9:26 pm)
It seems that Toyota’s responses have been as frank and thorough as could be expected. Although we might initially believe it to be a minor consideration, Toyota’s business performance in a very competitive marketplace is dependent on such things as the published oil change intervals. It is important to them that a competitor not be able to cite owner’s manual data on oil life as a Toyota disadvantage. While careful not to contradict the 5,000/7,500 mile published oil change intervals, Toyota is nevertheless providing strong encouragement to change oil if there is any doubt as to its condition. For example, it is suggested that the oil be changed after four months even if the vehicle were in storage during the entire interval. This guideline concurs with the published data but from my perspective, is a very stringent oil change standard. While many of us desired to see an engineering analysis of the engine lubrication question, we had to realize that Toyota’s responses would of necessity be based on marketing, sales, accounting, dealer, and other inputs as well as the engineering analysis. I believe they have now provided credible responses and a surprisingly strong special warranty. At the same time, it is certainly understandable that owners of some of the affected vehicles have not forgotten the rude treatment, costs, and inconvenience experienced during the months preceding the SPA announcement. Toyota’s explanation of the recent running change in the crankcase ventilation system is also plausible. I would not bother to try retrofitting this change to an existing engine but, as with any engine, I would inspect and clean the existing PCV system from time to time. Bob from Jacksonville has described the additional oil shearing associated with geared cam drives and pointed out that frequent oil changes will avoid problems associated with this type of oil deterioration. Bob, and others, have also provided information on recent and upcoming oil chemistry revisions. This information also provides an incentive to change oil more frequently than indicated by the automobile manufacturers. Further, please recall that Mr. Shiftright, backed by others of us who have also been focused on engine longevity for a few decades, advocates oil changes at 3000 miles or less for most types of vehicles. Perhaps we should try to regard the unpleasantness of an oil-sludged engine as we do our stock market losses – even though we don’t forget, we focus on the future rather than the past.
#857 of 877 Post #721 (pdalpsher oil analysis) by rubicon52 May 04, 2002 (1:39 am)
Pdalpsher provided a detailed description of his driving habits (not severe) and his oil analysis. The oil analysis (if I'm interpreting it correctly) indicates that his oil was "worn out" (change in viscosity, depletion of additives) at 2400 miles. His post and many others refutes Toyota's position about oil sludging being caused solely by poor owner maintenance and lends credibility to the other theories presented in this forum such as oil shearing, etc. The owner maintenance explanation never made sense to me. Although maintenance can vary greatly from owner to owner, if you look at, say, a million Honda Accord owners and a million Toyota Camry owners, one would expect the percentage of poor maintained and well maintained vehicles to be about the same for both makes. Also, Toyota buyers (in my opinion) if anything tend to be fairly responsible owners who are probably above average as far as maintenance. I only see 2 plausible explanations: 1. There is something about the design of certain Toyota engines that makes them more susceptible to sludging. 2. The sludge rate of Toyotas is comparable to that of other manufacturers, but forums like this have created mass hysteria in which Toyota owners are coming out of the woodwork with sludge compaints. Can anyone offer additional plausible explanations?
#858 of 877 PCV by armtdm May 04, 2002 (4:55 am)
Well, personally the PCV cleaning or replacement is a good try but I just find it impossible to believe. Over many many years, many many cars I have yet to see a PCV valve plugged up. In my Camry with 7500 mile changes the $4.50 part is cheap and I replace it but after 30,000 miles it appears as good as new. I just find that hard to believe. But, I use synthetic. Even other cars though, never had one of those suckers get filthy. I tend to agree with Bob on this one, the oil is simply being beat to crap in these post 97 engines and current oil can not handle the abuse. If I had a post 97 engine I would not bother with installing the new component.
#859 of 877 Shifty by duckshooter May 04, 2002 (5:53 am)
In reading your last post yesterday, something was just not right... and I realized today what it is. You said: "Fully 65% of these Americans said that 3,000 mile oil changes were "extremely important" ... "Okay, so let's presume then that of the 3,000 people who complained about sludge, that 65% changed their oil at 3,000 miles and still got sludge." "...So now we have 2,000 innocent victims..." This can't be said. The 65% figure may apply to the overall population, but when you define a non-random subset (sludgees) the 65% can't apply. Reason being - if you're in the other 35% of the general population to start with, you're more likely to be a sludgee (one of the 3000). Therefore, by necessity, the 65% figure cannot apply to the 3000 subset. In fact, you could make a strong case that only a few of the 3000 sludgees were in the original 65%. And then THIS would lead you to a few cases (a handful) of unexplained sludge - not 2000 of 3000. This is in keeping with what we've generally seen here - there are some cases of unexplained sludge but it's not evident that most cases (65%) are unexplainable. Jeff
#860 of 877 by Mr_Shiftright HOST May 04, 2002 (6:11 am)
Yes, of course, Jeff, you are no doubt correct, it was just a very rough attempt at putting a modicum of rationality into the argument. rubicon -- I don't believe we have anywhere near enough data to presume the sludge rates on neglected engines of other automakers at this time. -------------------------------------------------- Okay, I think we will begin to wind up this forum! TA DA! If anyone would like to say something that hasn't been articulated before (please don't repost your complaint, as you have been heard, believe me!), or to exchange info or e-mails with other participants ( you can click on their username to get their e-mail address) or just to say goodbye, or to download the Toyota access numbers in response #742, please take the time to do so. The forum will remain archived indefinitely and may be accessed by clicking on "archived topics", a heading that appears on the entry page for each of the Town Hall boards (you can't access archives while you are reading or typing IN a topic, like now, but only when you go to the page listing all the topics on the Board). I'd like to personally thank all of you who went the extra mile to set an example for courtesy and respect of other opinions, and especially to those who started off with guns blazing but who disarmed and became community members who were pleasant to be with. Most commendable! And, of course, to those who did worthwhile research, and dug out interesting facts and URLs for us. No forum between people is perfect and I know this one might not have been entirely satisfying, but in my opinion, life really isn't like TV or the movies. Sometimes the truth of the matter needs to be constantly searched for, and emerges slowly, with a lot of effort and patience. It doesn't just appear 5 minutes before the hour. Of course, I hope it doesn't take as long as X-Files either. Thanks again, all participants/Toyota/Edmunds management. May none of you see Sludge again. Mr Shiftright Host
#862 of 877 I'd like to suggest some things before this closes by bobistheoilguy May 04, 2002 (7:13 am)
to help people who keep asking about what oil to use to avoid this problem. Since this topic is going to be in depth and you're going to shut down this soon, I am going to set up a page specific to the toyota oil recommendation page so you may click on it and understand how to determine what to use based on these suggestions. watch my main page ( http://www.bobistheoilguy.com ) as I will provide a link directly to this issue sometime during this weekend. I have really enjoyed talking with you and hope that you were able to use what was put forth on this thread by toyota and others. bob