Engine Sludge/Oil Gelling--Toyota's Customer Response - READ ONLY

877 messages, Last post on May 09, 2002 at 5:24 AM

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#833 of 877 Not exactly, by bobistheoilguy May 03, 2002 (6:01 am)
There is plenty of oils that can do this job up to the specified 7500 mile normal service but you must realize that not all oils are or will be created equal as this oil sample suggests. Toyota is the only motor company that has this kind of design and is why it is such a reliable engine but the lubrication industry is stretched between consumers who want cheap oil changes, epa wanting to vacate all smog, some manufactures who want cat convert damage reduced, and some consumers who want better wear protection. This is why so many types of oil's exist and why so much confusion as to what is or is not the best. Amazing enough even regular ase master mechanics have no concept on oil basics other than personal experience and unfortunatly too often people rely on the mechanic for oil information which in some cases he may or may not give correct advise due to his limited knowledge on the subject. This is one of my primary duties in my business is to educate shop mechanics as well as business people who own $$$$ of heavy equipment on basic lubrication fundimentals to assist in reducing lubrication problems that most don't even know exist.
#835 of 877 comments by jj35 May 03, 2002 (6:14 am)
1. Regarding convincing and compelling evidence, all that Toyota has said about oil changes is that if I follow my manual I won't get sludge. But, I followed my manual and did get sludge. After having the sludge, I am now changing my oil more frequently than the manual says, but am I doing it enough? Immediately following the sludge, I was going every 3,000 - 4,000 miles on Castrol, but switched to Castrol Syntec. Just had my first oil change on the Syntec after a little over 4,000 miles (and about 3 months for those interested in the time component). 2. 0.1% occurrence rate for sludge - where did this come from? Toyota has said that they have received around 3000 complaints of sludge out of 3.3 million engines sold. This is not an "occurrence rate" for sludge. This is simply what Toyota says it is - the percentage of owners they say have complained about sludge based on total engines sold. Early in this discussion, I asked tmsusa1 for information on the total number of sludged engines that they are aware of (not just "complaints", but including those that Toyota may have repaired under warranty or diagnosed with sludge, but owners never complained). I also requested seeing this number by vehicle and by year. I have not read a single sludge report for the Highlander or Celica or any 2002 vehicles, but I assume that they are included in the total 3.3 million sold figure. I was specifically interested in the number of sludged Siennas (1998 - 2000 Siennas would be good) in comparison to the total Siennas sold in this time frame because there has been some speculation that the failure rate is higher in the Sienna. tmsusa1 did not respond directly to these prior questions, and it probably goes back to being information that Toyota does not want to disclose publicly. 3. pdalpsher, thanks for posting your oil analysis results. I have thought about getting them done, but haven't done so yet. I think bobistheoilguy suggested it, too. You have convinced me to get it done. I have been using Castrol Syntec, so it would be interesting to see how it is holding up. And you have a good question - should you change your oil every 2,000 or 2,500 miles based on this analysis? One analysis on one brand of oil is probably not enough to make a definitive statement on this. Change oils and analyze again around 2,500 miles.
#836 of 877 Another question about the .1% by cliffy1 May 03, 2002 (6:30 am)
If I remember correctly, that figure represents the number of people who have complained. Of those, I would be very curious to hear how many were complaining in hopes of having Toyota pay for their negligence. I'm not talking about the Catgems and JJ35s of this world. I'm talking about the people who really did ignore the service schedule in dramatic fashion. The people who change their oil once over 20K miles or worse. What I am getting at here is that I am sure there are more than 3000 sludged Toyotas hanging around. Whatever the actual figure is, you can be sure that a large percentage of them really did abuse their cars. Many of those realize the error of their ways and didn't register complaints with Toyota. It is also likely that some went ahead and complained anyway in hope of getting a big corporation to pay for their negligence. I would be curious to hear how widespread this is from Toyota.
#837 of 877 Complaints by jj35 May 03, 2002 (6:55 am)
Yes, Cliffy, I agree that there are probably some of the sludged Toyotas that were likely abused. You bring up a good point because I don't know how Toyota would eliminate the "abused" ones from the total without a definition of abuse and also, if all Toyota dealers treated their customers like mine treated me, then Toyota has no idea how frequently the oil was changed, because they would not even accept or look at receipts until the SPA came out. Toyota could possibly use records to estimate total engines sludged where the owner provided evidence of at least one oil change per year, as requested in the SPA.
#838 of 877 jj35 by cliffy1 May 03, 2002 (7:01 am)
I guess you are correct about that. Defining a word like "abuse" is like defining the word "love". It means different things to different people. You are also correct that some dealers have not been very good at handling customers in all of this. Combine that with people who would lie about their service history and there probably isn't a way to answer my question.
#839 of 877 thanks for feedback by pdalpsher May 03, 2002 (7:47 am)
on my oil analysis. I'm a lot more comfortable knowing what is going on so I can adjust my maintenance practices accordingly. I'll also put myself on a 2500 mile interval until I see improvement. The 2500 will work well with the 5k intervals in the manual...I'll just double up on the oil changes. I'll also get the air filter replaced at my next change. I'd also be interested in TMS's comments...particularly if an engineer helps analyze the test results from their perspective. I'm not hard on my vehicle and I really don't consider my driving to be 'severe' during the time this oil was running in my car. This summer the weather puts me into severe (90+ temps and humidity) so I stay on a frequent change schedule year-round. For me it looks like 5k would be too long on this brand of oil.
#840 of 877 Oil analysis by joedbob May 03, 2002 (8:12 am)
Can someone please tell me where to go to get an oil analysis? What kind of business? And when is the best time to get one, i.e. how many miles on current oil? Thank you.
#841 of 877 by Mr_Shiftright HOST May 03, 2002 (8:22 am)
Very interesting, thanks for the new info on the oil analysis everyone. This talk of oil quality and characteristics has encouraged me to present a possibly new way of looking at this entire problem. Please follow along and comment: 1. A recent survey reported in USA asked Americans about things that were "extremely important" to them, such as doctor visits, etc. It asked them to rate the relative importance of certain things in their lives. 2. Fully 65% of these Americans said that 3,000 mile oil changes were "extremely important" (you can see where I'm going with this?) 3. Okay, so let's presume then that of the 3,000 people who complained about sludge, that 65% changed their oil at 3,000 miles and still got sludge. 4. So now we have 2,000 innocent victims. Okay, so 2,000 cars SOMEHOW got sludge in spite of frequent oil changes. This means there were other factors. Let's look at them: 5. OTHER FACTORS of major consequence would include: a. Grade and quality of oil (thank you bob) b. Engine design itself c. Driving conditions, type of use d. Climate 6. So, 2,000 people, or 1 in 1500, have apparently gotten sludge due to one or more (probably more than one) of these factors. 7. NOW MY POINT---which of these can be corrected? 8. ANSWER -- quality of the oil and the engine design. CONCLUSION -- If you change the oil regularly, and actually investigate the quality of the oil going in your engine, and if Toyota does some design to the PCV system (which it is doing), then you probably have this problem licked forever. I am presuming that climate and driving conditions cannot be easily changed and, by themselves, will not cause this problem. If climate and driving conditions were the sole cause, it seems obvious to me we'd be seeing a massive number of sludge cases. Okay, end of my sermon, thanks for patiently reading it.
#842 of 877 Change oil and Quality May be Full Answer by armtdm May 03, 2002 (8:43 am)
As the oil analysis showed at 2400 miles the oil was FRIED on that engine. Not a design flaw but "because of the design" the oil has to be changed more frequently as it is beat up pretty bad by the engine. Hosts' solution is to change more often. Newer oils (SL and future classifications) coming out are more interested in potential damage to cats, emission issues and mpg. There appears is no concern of wear or durability of engines. Auto manufacturers forced by gov to go this route and API which certifies the oil is forced to go this route as the auto companies and oil industry control and fund API. The consumer has no voice in this, We will be fed inferior wear protective oils in the future and will be forced to use them as they are mandated in the owner's manual as USE API CERTIFIED OIL. To keep the engine humming we will also have to change frequently as the oils just can't do the job of predecessors classifications like SG and SH. In fact, it appears that for long term durability you will either need to change your oil very frequently (against the total trend in auto maintenance for all other components) or use a non API certified oil. Seems to me the use of non API oils will be a major thrust for consumers and oil refiners if they can get the word out that non API oils protect better in the long run. Thus, the RedLines, Amsoils, Max Lifes of the world will capture a major market share. API will lose its influence over oil consuming industry. In fact, go to a auto parts store, 99% of the customers have no concept of what the API logo means now. They are strictly buying on price, but, in the past basically no non API oils were on the shelf, now we have 25%-50% of the oil I have seen as not being API certified based upon a recent visit. A good marketing campaign could have more owners moving to non API oils. This may be the only way measure oil quality in the future, along with analysis.