Engine Sludge/Oil Gelling--Toyota's Customer Response - READ ONLY

877 messages, Last post on May 09, 2002 at 5:24 AM

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#825 of 877 my problem by jj35 May 02, 2002 (4:48 pm)
I could walk away mad and never have anything to do with Toyota again and despise my Sienna until I sell it. Or I could come to public forums to discuss my problem with people with technical expertise, try to figure out what is wrong with the vehicle, and go from there. I still don't know what is wrong. I am still trying to figure it out. No one has given me convincing and compelling evidence that I can change my oil every 3k miles and never have sludge again. I don't think anything was "fixed" on my engine, so whatever caused it to sludge is still there. Regarding your post, MrDetailer, I live in Florida where I do not have the problems with cold weather. Also my sludge was at one year, 17,000 miles. Your post may address some of the sludge problems, but not all. But thanks for the info. letsrock - I didn't get it either.
#826 of 877 by Mr_Shiftright HOST May 02, 2002 (6:08 pm)
telitlikeitis -- no purposeless Toyota bashing is allowed here. Your post has been removed. Please contribute something more constructive to the forum or stand by and read. thank you. jj35--please don't respond to trolls and troublemakers. RE: your comment: "No one has given me convincing and compelling evidence that I can change my oil every 3k miles and never have sludge again." What I'm hearing from some members of the forum is that you have in fact been given convincing and compelling evidence by both Toyota and other technical people but you just won't accept it. Toyota believes that you will never, ever have sludge again if you follow the oil drain recommendations and they are willing to back up their belief for 8 years and unlimited miles. They've even come here to tell you this, and to contact you personally. Contrast this with doubters in the forum, many of whom don't even own Toyotas, who have no technical credentials, who have offered you nothing of monetary value, and who essentially seem to egg you on to remain upset. An objective observer would be at least tempted to suspect that you really enjoy being mad at this point. I myself am reasonably convinced that the sludge in preventable, and given the .1% occurrence rate, rather unlikely to occur in your or anybody's Toyota. And, if all this somehow fails, Toyota picks up the tab for you. At $6,000 a pop, one would have to think Toyota believes the answwer to Sludge is a shorter oil drain interval.
#827 of 877 I'd like to hear what .. by artwis May 02, 2002 (6:43 pm)
the "convincing and compelling" evidence is as far as a "engine will not sludge if the oil is changed every 3000 miles". One other comment, a friend of mine who is middle aged and was leasing a Camry got one of letters. All she thought was that Toyota was mad at her because she wasn't changing the oil often enough (which she wasn't). The lease then ended and she didn't even consider another Toyota (this was her 3rd or 4th Toyota lease) and instead leased a Altima. The letter itself may be scaring repeat customers away.
#828 of 877 bobistheoilguy and TMS I did a baseline analysis by pdalpsher May 02, 2002 (7:57 pm)
With my most recent oil change I asked for an oil analysis and I just got the results today. This is a 2001 Highlander V6 6407 miles and 2400 miles on the oil at the time of analysis. Also fyi, weather has been milder than normal some temps in lower 30's but into 40s+ during the day. My commuting is not heavy stop and go with the one-way distance being 12-15 miles. I've been getting 20-22 mpg with every fillup (vehicle is rated 19/23 for fuel economy) Results (Metals are in ppmillion by weight) copper 1 aluminum 4 iron 8 lead 131 chromium, nickel & tin 0 molybdenum 76 potassium 1 silicon 39 antimony, barium 0 calcium 2032 magnesium 9 phosphorus 875 sodium 6 zinc 992 Viscosity at 100 deg 8.28 water, glycol, fuel dilution 0% oxidation, nitration 0 TBN (D2896) 0.5 Comments: oil viscosity is 20W (was 10-30 Penzoil). High lead. The source may be the seating of bearings during the break-in process. TBN is low: oil is at end of service life. This oil had 2400 miles on it. Previous changes were at 1000, 4000 and I changed early this time as I traveled out of town. Three questions based on these results: 1. Would you keep this vehicle on a 3k cycle or shorten it to 2k? 2. How frequently should I get an analysis done? 3. Any issues with the analysis other than the comments noted?
#829 of 877 Analysis by armtdm May 03, 2002 (4:03 am)
Yes, lead very high but could be due to reason cited by lab. However, silicon also high end but that is probably due to silicon seals wearing in and not dirt. real issue is the oil. looks like the additive package is basically gone, TBN way too low. Rule of thumb is that when TBN reaches less then 50% of original value or below 2 it is time to change. I would suggest going to a different oil. My 92 (granted not the sludge prone V6) analysis looks the same for wear metals (except for lead) silicon in teens and additive and TBN good after 7,500 miles which I have been doing for past 5 years, but a synthetic. The Low TBN and additives after only 2400 miles, change brand of oil.
#831 of 877 pdalpsher , and all others..... by bobistheoilguy May 03, 2002 (4:42 am)
In this case, he has a higher than norm silicon and I'd look for a induction leak or need of a new air filter.(iron slightly elevated). Nothing too serious but worth looking at.(also silicon could be part of the detergents.) Lead is abnormally high and only comes from the rod (crank) bearings. This also is used in some engine flushes that may have been used previously. Now as for viscosity Shear..This is exactly what I have stated before and now we have someone else posting a great example of my argument as to what is happening to the oil therefore causeing sludge. lets look at this analysis and hopefully toyota themselves will see what I was saying here. pdalpsher's viscosity in 2400 miles on a 10w30 penzoil has gone from a kinematic viscosity of 30 to a mid kinematic grade of 20wt. This is what I was showing where these high performance engines are ripping the oil apart due to excessive shear. (This is not a engine defect. The lubrication industry has made changes (1996) and alot of them are using price competitive additives.) (more on the effects of oil shearing .. http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/oilshear.htm ) Once the oil starts to lower in viscosity, more heat becomes a part of this factor due to lower viscosity and shear. This is why the TBN is spent completely out due to higher levels of heat put on the oil because of the lower wt thus oxidation and acid build up starts to occur and the detergents/ antioxidents are wasted trying to keep the acids from forming. Once this level is reached, this oil will then start to gell if run longer. The VI additives that have been destroyed now become a part of the contaminent process causing the oil to thicken into the gellation process and onward to black death. In this case pdalpsher, I would seriously consider useing a different oil. One that might provide a better VI #. A lot of full and synthblends don't rely as much on VI additives as some basic dinos and will take more to shear it down. I would then run the oil to no more than 3k with another sample until you can see an improvement in viscosity retention by using oil analysis. I hope this helps you all to understand that this is a high performance engine that is design to deliver excellent perfomance but also demands more attention to maintenance proceedures. This design has been used for many years and even before 97 but due to the oil industry's endevor to follow epa standards and such, They (lubrication industry) has made many changes (1996, 2001, and now mid 2003 a new change is proposed) and this in my opinion is what has caused this problem and not the engine design. For more basic information on oil analysis... http://theoildrop.server101.com/whatisoilanalysis.htm PS, This post is not to stir up or alarm anyone but to help you understand for those of you that are searching for cause and effects or what why and how to avoid this problem again.
#832 of 877 so bobistheoilguy suggests by krzyss May 03, 2002 (5:50 am)
that there is/was disconnect between lubricant and motor industry. Engine maintenance procedures might have been developed with different oils than the ones available on the market. Krzys
#833 of 877 Not exactly, by bobistheoilguy May 03, 2002 (6:01 am)
There is plenty of oils that can do this job up to the specified 7500 mile normal service but you must realize that not all oils are or will be created equal as this oil sample suggests. Toyota is the only motor company that has this kind of design and is why it is such a reliable engine but the lubrication industry is stretched between consumers who want cheap oil changes, epa wanting to vacate all smog, some manufactures who want cat convert damage reduced, and some consumers who want better wear protection. This is why so many types of oil's exist and why so much confusion as to what is or is not the best. Amazing enough even regular ase master mechanics have no concept on oil basics other than personal experience and unfortunatly too often people rely on the mechanic for oil information which in some cases he may or may not give correct advise due to his limited knowledge on the subject. This is one of my primary duties in my business is to educate shop mechanics as well as business people who own $$$$ of heavy equipment on basic lubrication fundimentals to assist in reducing lubrication problems that most don't even know exist.