Engine Sludge/Oil Gelling--Toyota's Customer Response - READ ONLY

877 messages, Last post on May 09, 2002 at 5:24 AM

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#778 of 877 Setting the record straight by tmsusa1 Apr 30, 2002 (4:06 pm)
Two statements have been mistakenly attributed to Toyota. We have NOT made either one: "Toyota claims their sludge rate is on par with industry averages" We have not made any claims about sludge rates. "Toyota's line is that the sudden onset of sludge reporting is likely tied to hype and hyperbole surrounding this website". We never said this.
#779 of 877 99 Toyota Sienna (w/ sludge) by greg_amy Apr 30, 2002 (4:38 pm)
My wife and I purchased a 99 Toyota Sienna with 73K miles on it (our 93 Camry just didn't have the room for our new addition - 4mth old baby boy). We had waited and save and were very excited to take delivery. I bought it from a small dealer (w/ good rep). I crawled under the van to see that the oil pan had been removed (I could tell b/c whoever did it used that orange "make-a-gasket" stuff). I took it to the local dealer to ask for a complete inspection (told them about the oil pan too). They informed me that I need to replace valve cover gaskets (leaking) and have the transmission services - so $500 bucks later the Toyota dealership told me the van had been taken real good care of.........forward 3,000 miles. It seemed like all of a sudden, the van started smoking - I started checking the oil and found that it was low. Over the next 1,000 miles, I added another 2 quarts. I took the van in for an oil change (at dealership) and explained the strange problem. They said they would run an oil consumption test - return in 500 miles. My wife dropped it off (after 500), they told her it was over 1 quart low and the engine had sludge problems. They would schedule an appointment to rebuild the engine - $6k at no cost to me. I was shocked, I called the service department and asked - they told me they would have to take my engine apart and clean it and put it back together. My question (if anyone is still reading) is: 1) Did this cause any additional wear on my engine? 2) What does the service department mean by cleaning my engine (do they replace anything)? 3) Is my engine going to have the same problem when it's put back together? In addition, they said that it would take up to 10 days. My wife asked about some type of transportation (we just sold our 93 camry) - they told her that Toyota was spending $6k on rebuilding the van motor - and that's all they would spend. While I am very grateful that they are going to "clean" my engine, I'd like to have a loaner that my wife could use with the baby. Anyhow, any feedback/comments are appreciated. Greg
#780 of 877 by Mr_Shiftright HOST Apr 30, 2002 (5:13 pm)
Greg you should send your VIN # and a copy of this post to <tmusa1> and ask him for his comments/suggestions. The e-mail is: corpcommstoyota.com. Seems like they are rebuilding your engine (it doesn't cost $6,000 to clean it!) but I don't know about the rental car arrangements. Seems to me you should have been given clearer instructions on how to bill Toyota for this and what the limits are, etc. It's possible that the daler isn't up to speed on the Protection Plan.
#781 of 877 Greg, As an interested party, by bobistheoilguy Apr 30, 2002 (5:28 pm)
I have spent some time with the local toyota dealership overlooking a couple mechanics shoulders while working on the sludged engines. Let me tell you that first, all pans and covers are pulled, head is pulled, pistons are pulled out, rings are taken off and replaced, cam's are pulled,and all other incidentals. Now, if they find one scar on the wall of any cyl, the block is replaced and not honed. If there is any wear evidence on any of the cams or crank, inspected by visual and mik-ing(measured with a mik gauge), again, replaced. The complete engine is completly dis assembled, cleaned, (in this dealership they soak the parts in a carb cleaner solution in a 30gal bucket for about 1 hr, then they have a steam cleaner that steams the parts for about 1/2 hour with multiple high pressure nozzels about 300deg water, then parts are pulled, dried,and reassembly is started. all gaskets and seals are replaced,including the valve stem seals. Pcv is checked and replaced if found to have a problem. This whole proccedure takes an average of 25-37 hours depending on parts availability and speed of the mechanic. So in a nut shell, engines gone through with this dealership has been basicly rebuilt and is a new engine. There shouldn't be any reason to think that this engine has suffered permanent damage in any way as any worn part is replaced and not rebuilt. Having gone though and seen this engine apart and being able to talk with trained ase master mechanics that have been working with toyota for many years, and with my extensive mechanical/ electrical background, I have come to the conclusion that if you are looking for a root cause due to engine design, you are not going to find it. As stated before, This engine is a high perfomance engine an has worked very well for many years. There is nothing in this engine that isn't in their older engines. Of course I have been through this and obviously there is some new guys that are asking the same old questions as before. As before, I suggest you take what toyota has offered and re-think your maintence practices. Because of the nature of these engines being a high performance engine, oil changes are not something that can be ignored. The old saying, ignore your health and it will go away, same goes with oil changes and this engine. If you are using the cheapest oil change for 9.95, reconsider and bring in your favorite oil in a bottle so you know you are getting a quality oil. If you were doing 7500 mile drain intervals, back it down to 5,000. if you were doing 5,000 mile intervals, back it to 3,000 miles. These are just some suggestions and are not to insinuate that you were not doing proper oil changes, just that if what you were doing didn't work, then make a change, otherwise your engines health will surely go away(again). As pointed out before and many times since, The people doing religous 3,000 mile drains, have not experienced 1 engine sludge issue and neither will any one else if you take common sense approach to oil changes. This is one reason I know (among other reasons) that this engine has no design flaw. In my opinion, I would suggest not going past 5,000 miles unless you are using a top grade synth or a specialized oil and even then oil analysis would be advisable.
#782 of 877 Response to post #680 by rubicon52 by deg856 Apr 30, 2002 (5:49 pm)
You appeared to have taken the years (1997 to 2002) of the vehicles covered under this special policy as evidence that those are the years when the rate of sludge is higher than normal. I don't know how anyone (especially one claimed to be experienced in the technical field) can jump to a conclusion this way. I see this special policy as a solid action to assure those customers who are worried, justifiably or not, that Toyota is standing behind their products. It's truly a no-win situation when they offered a generous special policy to address the general concern and got even more accusations thrown their way because of the offer. The Chrysler story is a clear-cut ethical issue that no one would argue. The Ford/Firestone and SUV roller issues are much more complex technical issues, although the public does not seem to care. If someone using a product gets injured or killed, the manufacturer gets blamed and gets sued, period, regardless of the circumstances. The thing is, how can a manufacture "just tell the truth and accept the blame" when the truth is intermingled in a dozen factors in real life, and some of those factors are controlled solely by the user? I don't need to tell you how far we've strayed from taking personal responsibilities as a nation. One way or another we all work for a company or a business, so I just don't understand this "business is always wrong" mentality. You suggested that Toyota could have easily said something like "we investigated and found that although these engines did not have a design flaw, they did not tolerate poor maintenance as well as our engines have in the past. We understand the cause and have identified and implemented an effective corrective action. We have every reason to believe that in the future, Toyota engines will exhibit the kind of reliability that our customers have come to expect." That is a very reasonable suggestion, but those remain your choice of words, not theirs. If they choose to borrow your words verbatim to satisfy you and someone else doesn't like it and want them to word it differently again, what then? It's time to look past the choice of words and look at the action. San Jose, CA
#783 of 877 Bob the oil guy by jj35 Apr 30, 2002 (5:51 pm)
question - before you said that it was your opinion that gears in the Toyota engine (and I think you said that these gears were unique to Toyota) caused the oil to shear at very low miles (around 4,000 miles). I know I am probably not quoting you very correctly as I do not have a mechanical background. Do you still think this is the case with the Toyota engine?
#784 of 877 jj35 - have you discussed your issues with tmsusa1 yet, as they repeated asked you to? by deg856 Apr 30, 2002 (5:58 pm)
If not, why not? If you have questions, why don't you go to the source? San Jose, CA
#786 of 877 mysteryman4u - tell the truth, are you john339? by deg856 Apr 30, 2002 (6:33 pm)
You're cutting-and-pasting routine, coupled with terrible logic, is as bad as john339 ever was. I fully expect to get this post deleted but you should be exposed for who you are. Save your posts and don't waste anyone's time. San Jose, CA
#787 of 877 actions or words? by davidfrancis Apr 30, 2002 (7:28 pm)
re post #680 - spot on. re post #686 by deg856 - sorry I don't agree that Toyota's current actions are enough. If they had responded this way initilally, then fine, that's enough. BUT, their initial response was denial/blame the owner. IMO this requires some sort of apology, not just the warranty extension. Like the Chrysler example, this is a "moral" issue because Toyota initially blamed the customer without any investigation. Remember how they wouldn't even look at oil change receipts? Their view was "you must be wrong because we are always right". This is not good corporate ethics, IMO. Not as bad as rolling back odometers, maybe, but not what we deserve from a company like Toyota. In summary, the actions are fine, but it's a shame they still won't own up to a mistake. Would it have been alright if George Washington had just bought his father another cherry tree?