Engine Sludge/Oil Gelling--Toyota's Customer Response - READ ONLY

877 messages, Last post on May 09, 2002 at 5:24 AM

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#61 of 877 by Mr_Shiftright HOST Apr 04, 2002 (11:00 am)
I have to confess I was completely sucked in by the early Sludge posts WAY BACK when. I had never seen this happen in 30 years with messing with cars unless the engine had been grossly neglected. It is a most peculiar thing to happen on low mileage engines, even for real "car guys". I'm still in the dark about the reason for it, although there have been some very plausible and a few less plausible speculations. One persistent confusion is the difference between oil "coking" and oil "gelling". Posters here are still getting them mixed up completely and I'm not even sure if BOTH are happening simultaneously. Hey Bob is that possible? Any thoughts on this?
#62 of 877 jeffmust2-Agree by armtdm Apr 04, 2002 (11:01 am)
The only way to truly show your unhappiness with a product is to never buy it again. I did so with Chrysler products starting in 1982 and Volvo in 1991. Never have owned one since and never will again own either of these maintenance nightmares!
#63 of 877 Helps some, not others by cholowicki Apr 04, 2002 (11:23 am)
This "kinder, gentler" SPA is another step in the right direction, but is still lacking. IMO, if the policy doesn't rectify the problem for all affected parties, it isn't good enough. My 2.2L 4cyl Camry seized on July 10, 2001. It is still at the dealership, unrepaired, and none of these SPA's help me one bit. I did not have the $5,300 to replace the engine, so my only other option was to retain a lawyer and try to force Toyota to repair the car. Now, almost 9 months later, Toyota is willing to repair the car and pay for car rentals for people who paid to have the car repaired. That is all I ever wanted from them in the beginning. Forgive me if I still feel short changed, but I am still living with this problem daily. My question for Toyota? Does your new SPA include legal fees in the "incidentals" description? I guess the only good thing I can focus on is that thanks to myself and others who experienced this problem earlier on and didn't give up, others will not have to go through what we went through. For future sludge victims, this will just be another annoying car problem. Not a 9 month nightmare to force a company to honor their warranty.
#64 of 877 Now we have some type of pattern. by mrdetailer Apr 04, 2002 (11:33 am)
The USA Today article said that the problem occurs under certain conditions. Hanson says the problems have been concentrated where winters are extremely cold and summers are especially humid and among owners who make a lot of short trips. Hanson says the company is making an immediate change to its V-6 engine that will give a wider margin of error if people wait too long to change their oil. A redesign of the four-cylinder already incorporated a similar change. In spite of what Toyota constantly says, it's clear now that Toyota is at least partially to blame. Here's another quote from the article. Toyota spokesman John Hanson acknowledges that the anti-Toyota Internet comments contributed to the decision. But, he says, "It is not an engine defect. We are sure the problem comes from people not changing their oil often enough."
#65 of 877 by Mr_Shiftright HOST Apr 04, 2002 (12:10 pm)
It would be interesting to hear if Toyota will spring for any "incidental" legal costs. I guess that might depend on how "reasonable" they are, that is, how much work the lawyer actually did and how much he billed for it. If he wrote a couple of letters, etc and presented a reasonable bill for that, maybe Toyota would foot that. Seems plausible anyway. If we get into "pain and suffering" issues, I think there would be a bloodbath rather than payment.
#66 of 877 Toyota is doing right by me so far...... by jlewelling1 Apr 04, 2002 (12:15 pm)
I'm a new Sienna owner and I have been somewhat concerned about the Sludge issue. I change my oil every 3000 K. The new policy makes me happy and reassured. I do have to question the statement that oil gelling is "concentrated where winters are extremely cold and summers are especially humid and among owners who make a lot of short trips." The area where winters are extremely cold and summers are expecially humid sounds pretty much like "the United States of America." As far as "owners who make a lot of short trips", who else would own a minivan? A minivan is made for short trips. It's not a car you use to commute into the city or to be a long distance courrier.
#67 of 877 shifright, by bobistheoilguy Apr 04, 2002 (12:30 pm)
Oil when breaking down goes through stages of degregation. At one point an oil will start to "thin down" due to the oils viscosity improvers being sheared excessivly. After the thinning down, heat starts to take over since the oil is thinning out .it starts to breakdown the base oil and worn out additives/ acids/ dirt/silicon/moisture all start to acumilate and take over thus at this time the oil starts to thicken into a gellation. While all this is happening, in some parts of motors, oil will sit like in the valleys usally up in the top of the motors where all heat rises to it. This is where it starts to "cook" the gellation into such a point that it becomes harden or coked. If looking at an engine you find that the harder substance is usually up top and the bottom tends to be a little softer, of course depending on how long this condition has been occuring. This would be how I percive the breakdown to occur from oil to gellation to coking. Just an observation that winters and summers are exposed to every type of car manufactures engines and is not in my opinion an excuse as to why thiers(toyota's) don't seem to hold up, but yet other engines do. nice try though. bob
#68 of 877 Re # 62...what's this then? by xwray Apr 04, 2002 (12:49 pm)
I'm reluctant to ask this since I don't believe it has any bearing whatsoever on the Toyota sludge issue but post 62 got me to wondering. Many years ago when I had occasion to tear down more than a few engines, almost any engine whould show evidence of "soft accumulations" of what I at the time called sludge. "Varnish" was also a term heard in those days. In no case was this varnish or accumulation thought to have been the cause of any malfunction...it was just a "natural occurrence" that was more or less dependant upon the quality/type of the oil extant in those days. It was sorta like the "stuff" that would be deposited from a flowing "eddy of oil"...silt if you will. Todays sludge is obviously not the same as sludge then nor is the oil. Was that really sludge?
#69 of 877 cholowicki and jlewelling1 by jj35 Apr 04, 2002 (12:54 pm)
Cholowicki - I think it has been a while since we have heard from you. I did not know that you were not being covered by the SPA. Have you tried to approach Toyota to see if you apply? If so, what reasons are they giving you for not repairing your vehicle? How can they refuse you if your car falls within the specified models and years and it has sludge? Toyota isn't just reimbursing people who already had repairs, but they are fixing the engines of those who have not yet had repairs done. Jimmuh (Jamie) recently had his engine repaired -- actually in his case, they did it under warranty, but it was because of the SPA and a lot of follow up from him that got it done. I think that the two owners in the Automotive News article also had their engines repaired, and both of them were like you -- without the use of their vehicles for months. There is a Lexus RX300 owner (rmnixon on the RX300 Town Hall) who found that there was sludge in his engine and just had his engine cleaned/repaired yesterday. You may want to contact Toyota again in light of this revised policy. Good luck! jlewelling1 - By "3000 K" oil changes do you mean to say that you are changing your oil every 3,000 kilometers? Or did you mean 3K miles? I hope it is the latter.