Last post on Dec 06, 2013 at 7:58 AM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
BMW 3 Series, Infiniti G37, Acura TL, Lexus IS 350, Mercedes-Benz C-Class, Cadillac CTS, Volvo S60, Audi A4, Acura TSX, Car Comparisons, Sedan
#9165 of 16984 Re: Acura TL is no ELLPS [joe131]
Mar 19, 2007 (7:23 am)
"I don't think anyone has ever explained how Acura's TL can even be considered as an ELLPS."
Actually I agree with you Joe, but not in the way you're thinking.
I believe that the entire "ELLPS Segment" has changed since this thread was created many moons ago. In 2002, the cars that were in this class were the E46, C-Class, A4, TL (Gen 3), IS300. These cars averaged about 200 HP and were, I believe, in a different class than the current breed. When the TSX came out in 2003, it compared very favorably to the 325i, C-Class, and A4 1.8T in size, HP, features, and performance.
The cars listed here now, on the other hand, are pushing 300 HP, are loaded with features, and are softer and heavier - more like the mid-level luxury cars from 5 years ago (E39, M35, A6). This segment is no longer "entry-level" if you ask me.
I believe the ELLPS segment we have here should remain "as is" because it is so well established, but a new class of cars is on the horizon - the "up-and-comers" as I like to call them.
The UAC segment is basically the "new" ELLPS segment and includes cars such as the TSX, A3, and (soon to be sold here) BMW 1-Series. This is a group of cars sold by a "luxury marque" that appeals to younger, up-and-coming professionals who want sporty luxury, but aren't ready to spend $40,000 on a car. The UAC segment offers less performance and fewer features than the ELLPS segment, yet more prestige and sportier dynamics than a CamCord (exactly what this segment used to be).
I once was a customer in the ELLPS segment, and I am still a passionate follower of this class of cars - even though they no longer appeal to me as a potential purchase anymore. They have grown too "midsize" for my tastes. Today, I would sooner purchase an RX-8 or a used E46 than one of these overweight leviathans.
#9166 of 16984 Re: Acura TL is no ELLPS [fedlawman]
Mar 19, 2007 (7:40 am)
Good observations and well put, fedlawman.
Precisely my thoughts; the class has outgrown itself and the replacement class is much more at what ELLPS really is.
Of course, that may have something to do with the smaller, lighter (well, somewhat), nimbler, and more driving-oriented the new class is...
#9168 of 16984 Re: Acura TL is no ELLPS [joe131]
Mar 19, 2007 (8:17 am)
Regardless of who said what, it doesnt make sense when you think about the vehicles being compared here. We can compare the A3 to the CTS just because they are the lowest models in their respective lineups. My definition is a midsize luxury car costing between $30k-$45k with at least 200hp as a base powerplant and another engine with 250+hp available. If the car only has one engine with 250+hp like the TL that is fine too.
#9169 of 16984 Re: 3 series size 
Mar 19, 2007 (8:23 am)
"All of my statements on value are based on features that are offered for the dollar."
The problem is, you're placing YOUR PERSONAL VALUES into the equation. If you define "luxury" as feature content, "performance" as 0-60 acceleration time, and "value" as most features for the dollar, then let's declare the G35 the winner and close this discussion.
Fortunately, there are as many definitions of luxury, performance, and value as there are people on the planet (well, almost anyways).
Is the G35 the best ELLPS value here because it has 18" wheels, HID's, leather seats, memory settings, 300HP, and RWD, for only $33,000? For some it is.
But if all that mattered was features for the dollar, then Porsche would be out of business tomorrow.
How is a 911S worth $80,000 when you can buy a 400HP Corvette loaded with SELECTIVE RIDE CONTROL, DUAL ROOF PACKAGE, CASHMERE SEATING WITH EMBROIDERED FLAGS EMBLEM, and ONSTAR for only $50,000?!?!
Some folks like the feel of cashmere on their tushy, and some folks like to drive.
#9170 of 16984 Re: Acura TL is no ELLPS 
Mar 19, 2007 (8:31 am)
My definition is a midsize luxury car costing between $30k-$45k with at least 200hp as a base powerplant and another engine with 250+hp available. If the car only has one engine with 250+hp like the TL that is fine too.
Midsize ruins it for me. ELLPS were compact sedans, not behemoth midsizers. Not sure what's entry level or performance oriented about driving a massive vehicle.
#9171 of 16984 Re: 3 series size [fedlawman]
Mar 19, 2007 (8:34 am)
#9172 of 16984 Re: Acura TL is no ELLPS [blueguydotcom]
Mar 19, 2007 (8:46 am)
"Midsize ruins it for me..."
Me too. Entirely.
#9173 of 16984 Question for Habitat and Blueguy
Mar 19, 2007 (10:58 am)
Can you please lend me your opinion on the Lexus GS350 rwd and awd.I am so close to pulling the trigger but I am scared that the new generation TL is going to blow everthing away.Habitat I know that you say the lexus are boring but I drove the RWD GS and I was impressed, but please lend me your opinion.
#9174 of 16984 Re: Question for Habitat and Blueguy [billyperks1]
Mar 19, 2007 (12:00 pm)
Never driven a GS. Too big for me. Sorry.