Last post on Dec 06, 2013 at 7:58 AM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
BMW 3 Series, Infiniti G37, Acura TL, Lexus IS 350, Mercedes-Benz C-Class, Cadillac CTS, Volvo S60, Audi A4, Acura TSX, Car Comparisons, Sedan
#8911 of 16984 Re: 3 series size [habitat1]
Mar 15, 2007 (4:26 am)
"The stitching details look like they were done by poor machines, blind immigrants or both. Can't speak for Saab, as I haven't been in one for quite awhile. "
What models are you referring too? Cadillac has great leather that feels and smells as good as anything else out there. They also have optional leathers on the DTS/STS that are even higher in quality. You cant be talking about the STS, DTS, CTS, SRX or Escalade so I dont know what models you are referring to. Cheap leather is smooth leather that has no graining and is overly smooth. You will find this on sub $30k cars like Accord and Camry. You wont find it on Cadillacs.
the stitching on almost any car today is top notch, even the Mercury Milan has nice stitching. I doubt cadillac has lower quality control standards than Mercury. Its important that we talk about current products on the streets now. Perhaps cadillac had poor leather and sticthing in the 70s but this is 2007.
The cobalt has recaro seats so I guess those seats are OK.
"I've been given enough Buicks and Caddys by Hertz and Avis over the years to have experienced GM leather quality - or rather lack thereof - first hand. "
And there is the problem. Most rental cars dont even have leather and even if they do I think its much better to check out the full range of cadillac products at a dealership or autoshow. I dont think rental car experience from a decade ago is necessarily relevant today. BTW, I've always thought that padding in the seat determines the firmness of the seat, not the leather covering. EVen if certain caddy models had soft seats that would be due to the shape and padding of the seat. Modern cadillacs have firm seating just like their competitors. If you know of one that doesnt please tell me know. When I thin of soft seating in a modern car I think of the Avalon or maybe the Lucerne.
#8912 of 16984 Re: 3 series size [shipo]
Mar 15, 2007 (4:31 am)
I've never read of any complaints about lack of comfort in the CTS or IS. Their seats seem just as Euro-firm as any BMW or MB. When I said the leather was soft, I meant that it was glove like and supple. I didnt say the seats were soft. Soft seats are kind of a thing of the past. Some seats have less lateral bolstering than others, but most bucket seats today have firm padding, much more so than 20 years ago.
Volvo makes good seats and has nice leather as well. There are few things that the 3 series has exclusive claims to, but nice seats arent one of them.
#8913 of 16984 Re: 3 series size 
Mar 15, 2007 (5:42 am)
"Since most people use their BMWs to commute I would have to say most BMW owners would be just as satisfied in another brand of car."
I agree. And by your logic most Infiniti, Acura, Lexus, Saab, Cadillac buyers would be happy with another car also. Like a Honda Accord or Toyota Camry.
I'm happy people buy the badge. People buy for the badge for Infiniti, Lexus, Acura, Cadillac. But they buy the badge for different reasons for different manufacturers.
By your posts I submit you are out of touch with the reasons people (not your 10 friends) buy a BMW.
#8914 of 16984 Re: amused 
Mar 15, 2007 (5:45 am)
The important point in your post is "I think". In reality this is not the way German manfacturers sell their cars.
Let me point out the 3 series leads the segment in sales for the smallest manufacturer. That is no mean feat. Obviously many people think differently than you, but you certainly are entitled to your opinion.
#8915 of 16984 Re: 3 series size 
Mar 15, 2007 (6:11 am)
"When I said the leather was soft, I meant that it was glove like and supple. I didnt say the seats were soft."
I know exactly what you said. What I'm saying is that the leather in the majority of the ELLPS cars that I've driven isn't anywhere near glove like leather. Said another way, if you put on a pair of gloves made from BMW seat leather, you probably won't be able to bend your fingers very far.
Thinking about this further, and then thinking about the questionable content of a number of your other posts, I find myself questioning whether you've ever even been inside of a BMW or similar car. Come on, come clean with us. Are you realy fifteen years old and about to get your driving permit?
#8916 of 16984 Re: 3 series size [kdshapiro]
Mar 15, 2007 (6:18 am)
The issue is people are clinging to outdating notions of what various brands stand for. Right now I would say only Lincoln and Lexus represent what we think of as "traditional" american luxury. Lexus of course offers the IS and GS but generally speaking Lexus isnt willing to trade any quietness or ride quality for sportiness. Infiniti, Cadillac and MB to various extents make vehicles designed to deliver what used to be the exclusive realm of BMW models.
I totally disagree that people who buy a G35, M35, CTS, STS, etc. dont care about handling as much as BMW owners. The people who buy these cars (in some cases) do care about handling and performance but they feel that there are superior choices to the 3 series or 5 series. 15 years ago BMW has little company in the RWD performance market but that has changed. Now there are numerous quality choices for those who want a RWD or AWD performance car. I'm pretty sure the owners of the 3 series' competitors would be offended if told that the "only" reason they arent driving a 3 series is because their driving skills are too dull to understand the 3 series is the only choice for those who like performance.
#8917 of 16984 Re: 3 series size [shipo]
Mar 15, 2007 (6:23 am)
I wish I was young again but alas I am nearing 30.
I have been inside of the current 3, 5, 7 and X5. I have driven the last gen 3, 5 and X5. I've never driven a 7 series though. I am quite familiar with BMW products and as familiar as a non-owner can be in all likelihood.
I'm lost as to your point regarding BMW leather and gloves, but it doesnt matter. The quality of BMW leather seems quite good to me, but the same could be said for any number of luxury cars. Again, I ask have you been inside any non BMW luxury car within the last 20 years? If not, try doing so at an autoshow because I think you'll be surprised. Which models in this price range are you criticizing for cheap leather? I am not clear on this yet.
#8918 of 16984 Re: amused [kdshapiro]
Mar 15, 2007 (6:28 am)
The 3 series has four body styles and three engines. This may contribute to its huge sales numbers. Its competitors have three body styles or less as well as fewer engines in most cases. It will be hard for any one model to match the sales of the 3.
I would assume most people here dont like the Camry and yet it sells over 400k copies a year so I'm not sure what sales prove. If more sales equal better car the F150 is the best vehicle in America. I dont know if I subscribe to that view. If sales are king than Lexus, not BMW knows what customers want more than anyone else in the luxury market. I guess you can be successful without manual trannies and autobahn inspired handling. Not that I like Lexus, I'm more of a Cadillac/BMW person who likes Audis to some degree.
#8919 of 16984 Re: amused [kdshapiro]
Mar 15, 2007 (6:30 am)
"In reality this is not the way German manfacturers sell their cars. "
Not clear on what you mean. You mean they dont really sell cars with leather in most cases? I would disagree with that.
#8920 of 16984 Re: 3 series size 
Mar 15, 2007 (7:07 am)
"have you sat in the leather lined model of any car that isnt a 3 series? I cant think of any luxury models that have blatantly cheap leather. Lexus, Cadillac, Audi, etc. all use nice leather. Sure leather on cheaper cars isnt quite the same, but cars in the price range of the 3 have very soft leather."
I have sat in various cars with leather, including Hondas, Toyotas, Buicks, Cadillacs and Lexi etc., IMO, the leather BMW and Lexus use quite different to what hte others use, including the crap leather in the CTS.