Last post on Dec 06, 2013 at 7:58 AM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
BMW 3 Series, Infiniti G37, Acura TL, Lexus IS 350, Mercedes-Benz C-Class, Cadillac CTS, Volvo S60, Audi A4, Acura TSX, Car Comparisons, Sedan
#8563 of 16984 Re: Costs Intellichoice says Acura vs. Cadillac... [joe131]
Mar 07, 2007 (4:36 am)
Save your breath - I don't put much credibility in any of the "true cost to own" lists. Not Edmunds, Intellichoice, Kiplingers, or others. I think they try to be as accurate as they can, but they are, at best, based upon a lot of hypotheticals that don't match my own experience. I have always paid cash for all my cars. Has kept me from ever spending beyond my comfort level. Depreciation is a factor I consider, if I think there is a chance I'll sell/trade the car in less than 5-7 years.
From Kelly Blue Book, the "trade in" value for 2004 models of the Acura TL 6-speed w/ Nav and the CTS 5-speed w/ Nav, 30,000 miles each and "excellent" condition:
Acura TL: $23,875 vs. current MSRP of $36,125 = $12,250 "loss" vs. new MSRP
Cadillac CTS: $18,625 vs. current MSRP of $41,180 = $22,555 "loss" vs. new MSRP
Everything on the TL (other than Nav) is standard, so it's hard to be sure I'm correctly optioning the CTS, but at a minimum, it appears the difference in MSRP is $5,000 without all the standard features offered by Acura.
The "true cost of depreciation" by my calcs shows the TL $10,000+ ahead of the CTS. Those are real numbers that are from real (KBB) trade in values today. You ask the Edmunds host and others how they came up with their figures. It is a mystery to me.
P.S. I suspect you'll counter that GM might give me a bigger discount on the CTS than I could get from Acura on the TL. But I managed to negotiate a $10,000 discount on a brand new 2005 Porsche 911S from a Baltimore dealer when the best I could do in the DC area was about $1,500 off. I would rather work hard to get a decent/good discount on a great car, than get a great discount on a (IMO) ugly, lower quality car.
P.P.S. My Acura dealer wants to buy back my TL for cash at slightly MORE than KBB Trade in value. It is a highly desireable car in the used car market. Try finding a Cadillac dealer that would do that with a 2004 CTS - not in a million years, at least in our area.
#8564 of 16984 Re: ELLPS missing [shipo]
Mar 07, 2007 (4:54 am)
I agree completely...after the LS, which I owned, Lincoln is done with Performance. Perhaps in the future when they merge and reinvent the brand.
Lincoln is done with "Hot Rod" status as far as I'm concerned. "My pappy says, "Son, your gonna drive me to ..." The END.
#8566 of 16984 Re: Costs Intellichoice says Acura vs. Cadillac... [habitat1]
Mar 07, 2007 (5:40 am)
I would rather work hard to get a decent/good discount on a great car, than get a great discount on a (IMO) ugly, lower quality car.
Agree 100%. Say the CTS is $38K out the door. Let's go with a 335i sedan at $44,000. I think the $6k is not only justified for the return but since you can get the Bimmer for a lot less on ED, the difference would be halved and the return is golden at that point in comparison to the class of vehicle you get for the added $. But I can NEVER see someone cross-shopping BMW vs. Caddy! How odd! Since this rarely happens anyway, the point is moot. More likely CTS vs. MKZ.
#8567 of 16984 Re: Coming to a dealer near you this spring... [blueguydotcom]
Mar 07, 2007 (6:36 am)
CTS inferior to C class? I think not. The C class is the most inferior car in the segment. Again, how is the CTS or any other car in the class remotely comparable to the A3? You're out in left field with that one. The A4 is based on a decades old chassis and it has the lowest output of all the V6s in the class. Gimme a break man.
CTS is outrageously overpriced compared to a 3 series? You are really out there with that one. I don't know how you managed to get an expensive 3 series for so cheap but that does not reflect the sticker price. How can you make price comparisons based on price paid? We can only go by MSRPs because they are consistent across the board.
"Even if the Caddy had been 5k cheaper than my car, it would have been outrageously overpriced."
That pretty much sums up your form of logic. I don't see how this statement can even be made with a straight face.
#8569 of 16984 Re: Coming to a dealer near you this spring... [andres3]
Mar 07, 2007 (6:53 am)
I don't know what you people count as "sport" or "luxury" but any "premium" brand base model vehicle with no options is about the dumbest buy you can make. That's a true sign of buying into the brand more than buying into the particular car. As for the A3, I would never drive the base model with no luxury features. That would be a joke. I don't know what A3 you're talking about but the entire dash board is one solid hard plastic mold. Does it seem well assembled, sure. So what? CTS at least has soft plastic grain. Are you saying what makes a car "speak" luxury and sporty are nice fit and finish and complicated audio/climate controls? If that's the case, you could consider a bunch of cars luxury. My point is I don't consider a souped up VW Rabbit hatchback that weighs 3600 lbs and luxury car. Sorry.
PS- one of the cars in my garage is a Mazda3 for commuter duty. It ain't all it's cracked up to be and has had numerous issues with brakes (rears completely shot after a 1.5 years- $500 repair under warranty), creaking and rattling, terrible fuel economy (averaging 18mpg overall with 27k mi) rough idling, tranny shift shock, emissions equipment repair, and a scratch prone interior. The press and reviews don't mean jack to me because they worship this little annoying car.
#8570 of 16984 Intellichoice Cadillac CTS vs Acura TLS-s... [habitat1]
Mar 07, 2007 (6:59 am)
Intellichoice figures in my previous post were for 2007 cars, not 2004. They are best estimations of what an average owner can reasonably expect, not numbers based on your own personal cars and your one person experience. I already told you that.
MSRPs on the 07's don't matter because Intellichoice starts by giving the shopper a reasonable target purchase price, not one that requires them to drive to your Baltimore dealer or one that might for some reason sell a car with a discount six or seven times that offered by another dealer. In the case of CTS/TLS the target prices were CTS $31,302 and TLS-S $36,504.
The five year ownership costs are averages for average owners, not supermen like you who achieve special deals on price, insurance, repair costs, financing, resale, fuel, maintenance, etc.
But I agree with you if your idea is that a person should not necessarily seek a purchase price or resale price that some guide says is average.
I trust you for your own opinion of what your own experiences are with your own cars in your own mind. Fair enough?
But for a more realistic comparison guide as to what average owners can expect from any of hundreds of cars, I'll trust Intellichoice or Edmunds or Kelley, etc. Even if their numbers don't end up exactly matching mine after I buy, own and resell a car, my guess is that their rankings of one car against the others would still place them in about the same order in cost of ownership as I'd have realized had I owned several hundred of the cars at the same time.
Guides are useful as guides. You are not meant to copy the numbers from them into your diary expecting them to match your personal experiences.
#8571 of 16984 Re: ELLPS missing [shipo]
Mar 07, 2007 (7:11 am)
Lincoln MKZ is the entry level sedan from an established LUXURY nameplate which is intended by that manufacturer to be both sporty and luxurious. Seems to meet the requirements of an ELLPS.
To be included in the discussion it does not have to be a slam-dunk winner. Hey, someone has to finish in last place, why not give more cars the chance?
Mar 07, 2007 (7:16 am)
CTS interior don't belong in the same sentence Chavis.
They just don't. I haven't been in an '08, but based on track record up until now, it's still Playskool-a division of General Motors.
From the pics I've seen, the proposed Pontiac G8 interior is more true lux than a CTS. Know who Lutz said they're using for sport-lux interior benchmarking?