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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

16252 messages,  Last post on Jun 19, 2013 at 4:39 PM

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What is this discussion about? BMW 3 Series, Infiniti G37, Acura TL, Lexus IS 350, Mercedes-Benz C-Class, Cadillac CTS, Volvo S60, Audi A4, Acura TSX, Car Comparisons, Sedan

Messages Page 621 of 1626

#6192 of 16252 Re: Only one question for this thread.... [habitat1] by rockylee

Oct 03, 2006 (2:48 am)

Replying to: habitat1 (Oct 03, 2006 1:37 am)
Rocky,
  
I'm not going to give you a lesson on economics and try to convince you to buy a BMW.
 
Thank-you. I guess habitat, I'm partial pal with GM, because most of my family has worked for them and Delphi.
Dad, and a few remaining relatives took the early buy-out at the end of July after 27 yrs. I still have a few family members left on the GM and Delphi payroll.
 
I'm not on BMW's marketing payroll and I don't care what you drive. Vice-versa I'm sure.
 
That is correct again. I'm just glad you aren't interested in cars made with cheap labor by child slaves. At least BMW's for the most part are made by people that are paid a livable wage and most are union-made and I can respect that pal.
 
But I will share my personal experience and why I don't ever see financially sophisticated buyers flocking from BMW (or Lexus, or Acura or..) to Cadillac.
 
For the most part you are correct. Cadillac has rebounded itself. I agree they need get that interior down to European levels to have a chance at regaining market-share.
 
From 1987 to 1995 I owned a Acura Integra. Initial cost $12,600. Retired to Salvation Army in 1995 w/ 127k miles.
 
Those were fun to drive cars. Like a Go-Kart, my buddy had a GS-R coupe a mid 90's model I
 
From 1995 to present I own a Nissan Maxima. Initial cost $20,500. Retired from primary duty in 2004, but still alive and kicking at 155k miles.
 
Maxima's are nice. They were a big player in the mid-90's. They have redone the interior very nicely, what last year ?
 
Perhaps there is a GM/Cadillac model that you would find attractive to own for the next 10 years.
 
I used to swap cars often, but now I like to hold on to them for at least 3 years. I'm going to buy at least my wifes grandma's 2000 Buick Century for $4K. She passed away a couple of months ago. It has like 70K on it. It will be my future work car. My grandmother has a 2002 Oldsmobile Aurora, with 43K and she is willing to sell it to me for $10K. I think I'm going to buy it also for the wife and kids. That's below trade in value. I'm going to pay cash for both.
 
I have a seriously difficult time renting a GM for 10 days on business.
 
Getting the low-end models must stink.
 
 For me, the value of a 335i, or any number of other really well built and well engineered cars, is that they can last 10-15 years - and still be enjoyable to drive at the end of that time.
 
I completely understand. GM, in the past they built some very horrible cars. I know why you are so skeptical about the future. In my eyes I'm finally seeing action, instead of just promises from GM. I as you know post alot. I spend alot of time gathering the newest inside secrets I can, and like posting links on Edmunds. Especially when it has something to do with GM.
 
If you buy high quality that lasts, at a fair price, you will almost always be ahead of buying low quality at a cheaper price.
 
Agree
 
GM has a long history of producing vehicles that, after 5 years, hardly anyone WANTS to own. They might have the ability to last 150k miles, but if they weren't already killing you with squeaks and rattles when they were new, they certainly will by the 5 year mark.
 
Agree. However I'm beginning to see changes. The 2004' GTO was the beginning of change and signs of quality. It didn't sell well because of style. The Lucerne is another nice piece of quality. Now we have the new SUV's CUV's Trucks, and you gotta agree that was a huge quality jump from the previous generation. habitat, take a Saturn Aura sometime when you get a chance for a test drive. It's not like you are obligated to buy it. How bout those Kappa Twins ?
  
I seriously doubt even you would find a 5+ year ownership experience desirable.
 
Off the top of my head the Aurora's, 95-99 Riviera were both Rock Solid. My former 02' Cadillac Seville STS was rock solid also. But yeah, for the most part you are correct unfortunately.
 
I'm sure GM would have something with another 100 lbs of torque to get your blood going. And you'd be stuck trying to find someone who finds a 4-5 year old Caddy an attractive car. They may be out there where you live, but they sure aren't in my neighborhood.
 
Yes Cadillacs, are very popular around here. Lots of conservative people around here. They like domestics especially the Trucks and SUV's (Mainly GM)
 
Michigan, OTOH the conservatives like Japananese, and domestics, kinda weird to me.
 
So in summary, I don't fault you for liking GM. That's your prerogative. And, I certainly don't fault you for thinking $40k is expensive. I made the same as you when I bought that Integra and thought, at the time, that a $20k Legend was too much.
 
$40K I think is alot of money, no matter how much you make. If I was a millionaire it would still be a good chunk of change. I hope GM, can make a car that even somebody like you would like to own someday.
 
But I would respectfully suggest that true build quality and long term value are not things that should be dismissed in favor of leather and torque. And that's where IMO, BMW will continue to shine over GM.
 
They do shine, and have a huge fan base. People who can and can't afford but both desire them the same. I've always respected BMW's cars. It's not like they are POS's. They are true-blue German Engineered. Even I was close to pulling the trigger on a very low mileage 97' Black M3 sedan last year. Got a Question, I sat in my buddy's 97' M3 sedan in the back seat. Is the 335i as roomy as it in the back seat ???? How much will the 400 hp M3 be ? Will the sedan be the same price as the coupe ???? (If you know by chance?)
 
P.S. In 1988 I bought a fixer upper house in a good neighborhood that I stretched for. This month, I'll send in the final mortgage payment. It's current market value is about as much as our 911S ... plus a 911 Turbo, Cayenne Turbo, and Carrera GT combined.
 
Hey rich guy, if you ever come to Texas, you need to look me up and give me a ride in your 911S
Ne ways congrats on paying your home off. I bet that felt good. Too bad my generation will never be able to get a "affordable" home. They are so out of line with prices. Dad, and grandpa told me it use to be that the rule of thumb was to not buy more house than 1-weeks net pay. Now they say 2 weeks and if your spouse has a job 3 weeks. I know I'm much younger than you, but is my generation insane or what habitat ????
 
So don't feel too bad for your friends that put money into a house instead of a Caddy... or a BMW... or even an Acura Legend.
 
That is true, but some of them are buying the Cadillac of houses.... one's they really can't afford. I think if you looked around you'd agree. House + Car doesn't=Job
 
Rocky

#6193 of 16252 habitat by rockylee

Oct 03, 2006 (2:55 am)

What do you think about the new S80 ?
 
Rocky

#6194 of 16252 Re: Only one question for this thread.... [rockylee] by kdshapiro

Oct 03, 2006 (4:59 am)

Replying to: rockylee (Oct 02, 2006 8:15 pm)
"OTOH, like I said they don't do it for me."
 
Got it. So what car in here appeals to you and why? You can have the Detroit torque, I'm way past that. I want a quality drive with the Detroit torque, unfortunately I can't afford a Bugatti.

#6195 of 16252 Re: Only one question for this thread.... [rockylee] by kdshapiro

Oct 03, 2006 (5:03 am)

Replying to: rockylee (Oct 02, 2006 8:40 pm)
"I'm not saying BMW will be toast, but a good slice of the 2,000,000 unit pie should be taken by Cadillac finally"
 
You're living in the future. That's okay. You believe Caddy is going to do great things in two years.
 
Do you think people shopping a 335 are going to buy a CTS-V? I don't. People shopping an M3 or M5 aren't going there either. A person who can afford an M5 is not buying a CTS-V. People buy those cars for specific reasons, none of which Cadillac can offer.
 
The CTS-V will be going after the 550 and M45 crowd. A rather narrow slice. Again, someone who wants a 550, I cannot see getting a CTS-V, but an M45 buyer might be a candidate. I think Cadillac is too little to late.

#6196 of 16252 Re: Only one question for this thread.... [kdshapiro] by rockylee

Oct 03, 2006 (5:16 am)

Replying to: kdshapiro (Oct 03, 2006 4:59 am)
Got it. So what car in here appeals to you and why? You can have the Detroit torque, I'm way past that. I want a quality drive with the Detroit torque, unfortunately I can't afford a Bugatti.
 
For 2007' I'd say the most appealing entry lux cars on the market are the G35, BMW 335i, Lexus IS 350, Acura TL Type-S, and yes a CTS, and thats about covers it, right ? Why do I like these cars ? Well they all have above average performance. Some offer a bit more "gadgets" while the others offer a bit more performance. If money was no option it would be a 335i since it's the newest player and has the best performance, while still offering enough gadgets. The TL Type-S, probably would be the most practical since it's a FWDer and can be driven year-around. The G35, is pretty darn nice also. The Lexus IS, has the most gadgets, but it's back seat is very tight. It's probably the best looking though. The Lexus IS, without the sport suspension package is roughly $44-45K Add the sport suspension it's about $47K, and finally it might be worth getting since VDIM is defeatable for 07'. I hope to see a head to head test of a 335i vs. 07 IS 350. Now that would be a great test. In 2008' we will be able to throw Cadillac, into the mix without any regrets.
 
Rocky
 
P.S. "You can afford a Buggati if you can get em' to do Generation Loans" Your Great, Great, Great, Great, Grand children would be happy their pappy signed them up.

#6197 of 16252 Re: Only one question for this thread.... [rockylee] by brightness04

Oct 03, 2006 (5:26 am)

Replying to: rockylee (Oct 02, 2006 8:13 pm)
I'm not boasting about it because it's never enough unless you are rich like brightness
 
Nah, I made only $30k or so back when I was 24; that was probably below average income nation-wide, and certainly below average where I lived . . . thank goodness I made a little more earlier, so had a car fully paid for already so I had a car to drive around that year. It was tough to make a living on $30k in Boston, even without a car payment.
 
Cars are about the worst place to park money, IMHO. It hardly matters which brand you buy, most of them cost about 50% purchase price in three years after factoring depreciation, interest payment, taxes and insurance. That's purchase price, not MSRP. Relatively high line cars may have higher residual as per centage of MSRP, they have higher base to begin with and have higher cost of money (ie. either the interest cost or the cost of your own money not earning interest). Take for example, even the 335i, three year residual is about 61%-65% (assuming real life resale is as high as ALG number, which is highly doubtful), cost of money at 5% works out to be 15% over three years. The 50% mark is reached even before typical 3-8% sales tax, 2-3% annual excise tax, $700-$2000 (2-5%) annual insurance etc . . . The only way to keep the per centage somewhat lower is waiting for the initial craze to pass, and shop for deep discounts and interest subsidies. That used to be GM's specialty, but nowadays BMW seems to have joined the club too.

#6198 of 16252 Re: Only one question for this thread.... [kdshapiro] by rockylee

Oct 03, 2006 (5:29 am)

Replying to: kdshapiro (Oct 03, 2006 5:03 am)
You're living in the future. That's okay. You believe Caddy is going to do great things in two years.
 
Yep.
 
Do you think people shopping a 335 are going to buy a CTS-V? I don't.
 
Within 2 years they will cross-shop em'. Then their will be a gut check of do I want the badge or the new champ ?
 
People shopping an M3 or M5 aren't going there either. A person who can afford an M5 is not buying a CTS-V. People buy those cars for specific reasons, none of which Cadillac can offer.
 
We will see within 2 years.
 
The CTS-V will be going after the 550 and M45 crowd. A rather narrow slice. Again, someone who wants a 550, I cannot see getting a CTS-V, but an M45 buyer might be a candidate. I think Cadillac is too little to late.
 
People will have to choose between "Life. Liberty. and the Pursuit". or Ultimate Driving Machine
 
The difference is big. The BMW, does have benchmark handling characteristics. The new CTS-V, will flat out blow the doors off of any BMW ever made in a straight-line.
 
I think BMW, will keep its hardcore handling obsessed audience, but will still have slices of the pie taken away by Cadillac, and Acura's 09' TL. They will be new customers, and I think both car company's could hamper BMW, from new generations. Cadillac, and we know Acura will deliver the goods in Gadgetology, and both will be cheaper to own because of price, and reliability.
 
In 2007' the decision won't be as hard as the future. I guarantee you that.
 
Rocky

#6199 of 16252 Re: Only one question for this thread.... [brightness04] by rockylee

Oct 03, 2006 (5:36 am)

Replying to: brightness04 (Oct 03, 2006 5:26 am)
That used to be GM's specialty, but nowadays BMW seems to have joined the club too.
 
Whoa !!!! "Open worm can alert"
 
ROTFLMAO
  
 
Warning: You are about to be attacked, for saying those words. BMW, and deep discounts don't go hand and hand, do they ?
 
Rocky

#6200 of 16252 Re: Only one question for this thread.... [rockylee] by brightness04

Oct 03, 2006 (5:38 am)

Replying to: rockylee (Oct 03, 2006 5:16 am)
"You can afford a Buggati if you can get em' to do Generation Loans" Your Great, Great, Great, Great, Grand children would be happy their pappy signed them up.
 
Nah, in a normal interest environment, stretching loans beyond a decade or two makes very little difference for the size of each monthly payment. At the current 5-6%, the intereste payment on the $1.1 million Veyron is $60-70k a year (APY vs. "rate"), with no capital amortization at all. Generational loans showed up for real estates once upon a time in some parts of the world only because interest rate was extraordinarily low.

#6201 of 16252 Re: Only one question for this thread.... [brightness04] by rockylee

Oct 03, 2006 (5:41 am)

Replying to: brightness04 (Oct 03, 2006 5:38 am)
brightness, I was trying to be funny, not scientific. LOL. However your math does make sense. The interest will kill ya like a home loan.
 
Rocky

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