Last post on Dec 06, 2013 at 7:58 AM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
BMW 3 Series, Infiniti G37, Acura TL, Lexus IS 350, Mercedes-Benz C-Class, Cadillac CTS, Volvo S60, Audi A4, Acura TSX, Car Comparisons, Sedan
Aug 31, 2005 (8:12 am)
I notice that NONE of the BMW officianados posting here have provided a SINGLE stat to back their statement about how the Bimmer is better than the IS. Rather its the same ol' same ol' you trut out about how BMW is such a great handling car... blah blah blah..
Can you tell me with stats why Veal Cordon Bleu tastes better than a McDonald's hamburger?
In 1990, MB execs and fanatics looked down their nose at Lexus. 15 years later, they are looking UP their nose at Lexus. Now its BMW's turn to face Toy/Lexus, and if you guys don't learn anything from history, guess what: you are bound to repeat it. Like I said, BMW execs are certainly not taking Lexus lightly, but it'll take you guys a while to come to that reality. So continue your head-in-the-sand folly.
In 1990 the LS400 undercut the price of the nearest BMW/MBs by over 10k. They got in on price and ability. The LS400 was more reliable and almost as nice as the BMW/MB counterparts. But it had a massive ace up its sleeve...the price was so scary low (35k!) that people had to look.
This is the tactic Infiniti took with the G35. Offer 90%- 95% of the 3 series but at 5-7k lower. It's worked and the G35 has carved out a niche.
Will Lexus do this with the IS250/350? Indications are the IS250 will start at 30k. Stripped. No leather, no xenons, no moonroof. IS350 would probably be 34-36k (we'll know soon). As far as I can tell, to get xenon lights on the IS350 you must get the 3rd highest package and a moonroof is still an option. We know the cars will come with this stuff on lots so it's safe to say an IS350's gonna run over 38k msrp. I'm betting (given GS pricing differences between the 6 and 8) that the IS350 will start at 36-37k (just like the 330i). So I'm not expecting the IS350 to be less than a 330i.
Where's the value? The value proposition is what got Lexus where it is. Never forget that. Just like Hyundai, Lexus came up offering almost as much as the competition but for less money.
#4386 of 16984 Re: Comparo [oac]
Aug 31, 2005 (8:27 am)
Maybe some of us have different meaures of what makes a car worthwhile to us. Your metrics are different than my metrics. My metrics are different than C&Ds metrics. Stats does not tell the whole story and never has.
Sad that a giant conclusion has been drawn from one comparo and a car one can't even buy.
Aug 31, 2005 (8:33 am)
My 330i's been in the shop for about a week and in that time I've driven a rentals and borrowed my bro-in-law's 325i last night. After 5 days in a Sebring, my bro's 325i felt so dialed in! I wasn't a fan of his car until last night...
#4388 of 16984 Re: Comparo [blueguydotcom]
Aug 31, 2005 (9:16 am)
Somtimes change is good.
#4389 of 16984 Re: Comparo [kdshapiro]
Aug 31, 2005 (9:33 am)
KD: you and I exchanged posts on the IS board and you prefered we bring it over here. Now that its here, you complain about it.
Stats does not tell the whole story and never has
I agree. However YOU initiated this discussion about the C&D comparo saying that Lexus fans are fuming and BMW fans don't seem to notice or care. So I tried to capture the essence of the comparo and argue that the new IS350, at least according to the comparo you pointed out, showed a vitural tie between both cars. That's it... But after debunking your assertions, you turn to the other kicker - stats don't tell the whole story. If you cannot argue facts why initiate a debate on one, eh ?
I am done...
#4390 of 16984 Re: Comparo [oac]
Aug 31, 2005 (9:43 am)
That's an interesting comment about MB executives in the early Lexus days. I was staying in a hotel in Germany in 1993 at which a meeting of MB executives was taking place. I was driving an LS400 at the time - a wonderful car. I mentioned this to one of the MB executives I chatted briefly with in the lobby. His attitude was one of polite disdain at even considering Lexus as competition. Now we see MB following the cheap to execute horsepower race strategy while Lexus pulls ahead with the new paradigm of hybrid synergy drives
#4391 of 16984 Re: Comparo [kdshapiro]
Aug 31, 2005 (9:53 am)
I'll say. I miss my car so much that just about anything with a manual and no dive in corners feels like heaven.
#4392 of 16984 oac is done
Aug 31, 2005 (11:21 am)
Finally a rest from oac. And I was just getting fired up . Does anyone know where I can get info on the Bimmer turbo that's supposed to come out?
#4393 of 16984 Re: Comparo [oac]
Aug 31, 2005 (11:50 am)
OAC: I have no idea what your talking about. Let me recap the things I have generally said across both boards:
1. I find the Lexus 350 appealing.
2. With gas prices estimated to be going to $4/gallon, Toyota has picked a lousy time introduce what is probably a gas sucking sports sedan. Unless you don't drive as intended, this thing will suck gas. You cannot have blazing acceleration and blazing gas mileage simultaneously.
3. There seems to "concerns" with the bias of the C&D toward BMW, seemingly having a "lesser" car take the #1 spot.
4. There is no doubt the engine is bigger on the IS, but that doesn't make it a better sports sedan.
5. BMW is not *dead*.
6. It's going to take a fair number of reviews to see where the IS350 fits in the pecking order. When the G35, it was the "king was dead". Not even close for BMW. It beat BMW in every metric. As more comparos were done different results began to emerge.
7. The 5.1 to 60 is impressive no doubt. I wouldn't want to try that with my car though.
8. The HP and gas sucking wars are not over, BMW is rumored to be working on a 3.5L twin turbo engine.
So if I'm complaining, what are you doing?
#4394 of 16984 Re: Volvo S60 T5 vs. 2006 MB C280 [qbrozen]
Aug 31, 2005 (11:59 am)
Good point.... its a 2.5T. Having a designation of 2.5T and T5 on the same model S60 - makes it easy to make typos.... Volvo really wants to confuse people!