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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

16091 messages,  Last post on May 25, 2013 at 9:20 PM

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What is this discussion about? BMW 3 Series, Infiniti G37, Acura TL, Lexus IS 350, Mercedes-Benz C-Class, Cadillac CTS, Volvo S60, Audi A4, Acura TSX, Car Comparisons, Sedan

Messages Page 439 of 1609

#4381 of 16091 Re: Comparo [pg48477] by oac

Aug 31, 2005 (8:08 am)

Replying to: pg48477 (Aug 30, 2005 8:19 pm)
I notice that NONE of the BMW officianados posting here have provided a SINGLE stat to back their statement about how the Bimmer is better than the IS. Rather its the same ol' same ol' you trut out about how BMW is such a great handling car... blah blah blah....
 
I'll say it again: the new IS350 is a 3-er beater. It comes with everything you'd need to kick the 330i, even when mated to a slush box, it still outruns all the MT sedans in its class. But its not just about speed, is it ? Its braking is best-in-class, its interior ergonomics is better than the e90, its exterior style is equally better, its handling is about even, and its ride is a tad lower than the e90 (w/non-sport version IS350 v sport-tuned 330i). In the fun-to-drive category, it is a virtual tie with the e90, and in the gotta-have-it both cars are a dead tie. How hard are these stats to digest for y'all ???? Oh, it promises to be more reliable, more safe, and we already know it is the fastest naturally aspirated V6 car in the entry-lux sport sedan class. A 5.1s to 60 is unbelievable, and doing a 13.7s to 1/4-mile has to be even more outstanding. But who cares, eh ? Oh, the IS350 is 52/48, while the e90 is 50.7/49.3; these two are the most balanced in the entire class...
 
In 1990, MB execs and fanatics looked down their nose at Lexus. 15 years later, they are looking UP their nose at Lexus. Now its BMW's turn to face Toy/Lexus, and if you guys don't learn anything from history, guess what: you are bound to repeat it. Like I said, BMW execs are certainly not taking Lexus lightly, but it'll take you guys a while to come to that reality. So continue your head-in-the-sand folly.

#4382 of 16091 Re: Comparo [oac] by kdshapiro

Aug 31, 2005 (8:26 am)

Replying to: oac (Aug 31, 2005 8:08 am)
"I'll say it again: the new IS350 is a 3-er beater. It comes with everything you'd need to kick the 330i,"
 
Except the road feel. The IS isn't out yet and C&D like the 330i better. Finesse over HP. I think that says it all. I find the proclamations about BMW being "dead" amusing, when a competitors car that has more HP, but not a "better" drivers car looses to the incumbent.
 
If HP alone is your game you will never win, because someone will always have more HP.
 
If BMW ever looked down their nose at Lexus, they must be celebrating with champagne at this latest comparo. Even though the car had some issues, it still came out on top. Now where is the 3.5L twin-turbo?
 
Note: I too find 5.1 unbelievable, but I wonder how many times that can be done without the tranny falling out. :lemon It still is remarkable, though not unexpected. 0-60 times have been inching down for the last few years.
 
With gas prices inching up to $4.00 gallon, it's going to be interesting how many people actually buy the IS350 when it's available.

#4383 of 16091 Re: Comparo [oac] by odessit

Aug 31, 2005 (9:01 am)

Replying to: oac (Aug 31, 2005 8:08 am)
Ok, oac, if I agree with you that IS350 is a 3-er beater will it make you feel better? If it is, and if it helps you to sleep better – ok, IS350 is 3-er beater. I just don’t recall since when it even became an issue what car beats what car? It is wise to discuss proc and cons and exchange opinions on different cars in order to make and an educated decision when choosing your next car, but argue and yell with no apparent reason "my car beats yours..." reminds my yearly school years
But again – if it makes you feel better then ok, let it be so... you car beats mine (325i). By the way, have YOU driven IS350? And have YOU driven IS350 and 325/330 bmw back-to-back lately? I’d really wish to hear your OBJECTIVE opinion
 
You are right though in one thing – none of the bmw "Aficionados" posting here have provided a SINGLE stat to back their statement about how the Bimmer is better than the IS. Well… maybe because it is useless to defend something that you simply love and enjoy driving? I don’t see any point in it. But to answer your statement about bmw handling (“same ol' same ol' … how BMW is such a great handling car… blah blah blah..”) I guess I just remembered how I measured the handling once. I was driving my friend’s Lexus (nice comfortable car) and turned steering wheel slightly and anticipated (actually needed) that the car will start turning. I turned the steering wheel a good, I’d say, 10 maybe 13 degrees. Well, needless to say, the car kept going straight. At the same speed and turning bmw’s steering wheel the same number of degrees, bmw actually responds. That is why I personally prefer bmw because of its handling and other things.
But in no way I am saying that my car is better or, God forbids, beats yours! I am just saying that I like my car for characteristics that have values to me and you probably like your car for some other characteristics that have values to you. We just have different values
Lighten up, dude:)

#4384 of 16091 Re: Comparo [kdshapiro] by oac

Aug 31, 2005 (9:10 am)

Replying to: kdshapiro (Aug 31, 2005 8:26 am)
I give up.... u guys just can't post straight. I conclude that you can't handle reality even when presented as CLEARLY as one can. Braking, ride, handling, speed, fit-and-finish, ergonomics, etc..... were all tested and the IS350 and 330i are a virtual TIE.... Yet, I get statements like this: "I find the proclamations about BMW being "dead" amusing, when a competitors car that has more HP, but not a "better" drivers car looses to the incumbent". Sad, really....

#4385 of 16091 Re: Comparo [oac] by blueguydotcom

Aug 31, 2005 (9:12 am)

Replying to: oac (Aug 31, 2005 8:08 am)
I notice that NONE of the BMW officianados posting here have provided a SINGLE stat to back their statement about how the Bimmer is better than the IS. Rather its the same ol' same ol' you trut out about how BMW is such a great handling car... blah blah blah..
 
Can you tell me with stats why Veal Cordon Bleu tastes better than a McDonald's hamburger?
 
In 1990, MB execs and fanatics looked down their nose at Lexus. 15 years later, they are looking UP their nose at Lexus. Now its BMW's turn to face Toy/Lexus, and if you guys don't learn anything from history, guess what: you are bound to repeat it. Like I said, BMW execs are certainly not taking Lexus lightly, but it'll take you guys a while to come to that reality. So continue your head-in-the-sand folly.
 
In 1990 the LS400 undercut the price of the nearest BMW/MBs by over 10k. They got in on price and ability. The LS400 was more reliable and almost as nice as the BMW/MB counterparts. But it had a massive ace up its sleeve...the price was so scary low (35k!) that people had to look.
 
This is the tactic Infiniti took with the G35. Offer 90%- 95% of the 3 series but at 5-7k lower. It's worked and the G35 has carved out a niche.
 
Will Lexus do this with the IS250/350? Indications are the IS250 will start at 30k. Stripped. No leather, no xenons, no moonroof. IS350 would probably be 34-36k (we'll know soon). As far as I can tell, to get xenon lights on the IS350 you must get the 3rd highest package and a moonroof is still an option. We know the cars will come with this stuff on lots so it's safe to say an IS350's gonna run over 38k msrp. I'm betting (given GS pricing differences between the 6 and 8) that the IS350 will start at 36-37k (just like the 330i). So I'm not expecting the IS350 to be less than a 330i.
 
Where's the value? The value proposition is what got Lexus where it is. Never forget that. Just like Hyundai, Lexus came up offering almost as much as the competition but for less money.

#4386 of 16091 Re: Comparo [oac] by kdshapiro

Aug 31, 2005 (9:27 am)

Replying to: oac (Aug 31, 2005 9:10 am)
Maybe some of us have different meaures of what makes a car worthwhile to us. Your metrics are different than my metrics. My metrics are different than C&Ds metrics. Stats does not tell the whole story and never has.
 
Sad that a giant conclusion has been drawn from one comparo and a car one can't even buy.

#4387 of 16091 Re: Comparo [odessit] by blueguydotcom

Aug 31, 2005 (9:33 am)

Replying to: odessit (Aug 31, 2005 9:01 am)
My 330i's been in the shop for about a week and in that time I've driven a rentals and borrowed my bro-in-law's 325i last night. After 5 days in a Sebring, my bro's 325i felt so dialed in! I wasn't a fan of his car until last night...

#4388 of 16091 Re: Comparo [blueguydotcom] by kdshapiro

Aug 31, 2005 (10:16 am)

Replying to: blueguydotcom (Aug 31, 2005 9:33 am)
Somtimes change is good.

#4389 of 16091 Re: Comparo [kdshapiro] by oac

Aug 31, 2005 (10:33 am)

Replying to: kdshapiro (Aug 31, 2005 9:27 am)
KD: you and I exchanged posts on the IS board and you prefered we bring it over here. Now that its here, you complain about it.
 
Stats does not tell the whole story and never has
 
I agree. However YOU initiated this discussion about the C&D comparo saying that Lexus fans are fuming and BMW fans don't seem to notice or care. So I tried to capture the essence of the comparo and argue that the new IS350, at least according to the comparo you pointed out, showed a vitural tie between both cars. That's it... But after debunking your assertions, you turn to the other kicker - stats don't tell the whole story. If you cannot argue facts why initiate a debate on one, eh ?
 
I am done...

#4390 of 16091 Re: Comparo [oac] by idele

Aug 31, 2005 (10:43 am)

Replying to: oac (Aug 31, 2005 8:08 am)
That's an interesting comment about MB executives in the early Lexus days. I was staying in a hotel in Germany in 1993 at which a meeting of MB executives was taking place. I was driving an LS400 at the time - a wonderful car. I mentioned this to one of the MB executives I chatted briefly with in the lobby. His attitude was one of polite disdain at even considering Lexus as competition. Now we see MB following the cheap to execute horsepower race strategy while Lexus pulls ahead with the new paradigm of hybrid synergy drives

Messages Page 439 of 1609

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