Last post on Dec 06, 2013 at 7:58 AM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
BMW 3 Series, Infiniti G37, Acura TL, Lexus IS 350, Mercedes-Benz C-Class, Cadillac CTS, Volvo S60, Audi A4, Acura TSX, Car Comparisons, Sedan
#2930 of 16984 Re: I picked the Mercedes C-class sport sedan [evilangel]
Nov 08, 2004 (6:57 am)
Pretty fair review.
One quibble: The TL has higher residual values than the C230 or the 325.
"Still a Japanese car": I'm not sure why it's this is used in a pejorative sense. The reliability reputation of Japanese cars is much better than European cars. Perhaps you're referring to the generaly looser steering of Japanese cars.
The TL is not getting the RWD any time soon, but it will probably get the SH-AWD from the RL. It'll add $2000 to the price, in all likelihood.
#2931 of 16984 Re: ...Kdshapiro ...
Nov 08, 2004 (7:20 am)
**People cross shop anything. What they cross shop has no bearing on how sales numbers are presented** ......
Some may spend months researching Bimmers or Benz's and in the final minutes, go home in a TL or a 300C, they might like the "name" Mercedes, but perhaps they leave in a Audi ... it depends on a potpourri of things: prices, their own personal taste -payments-, the way the vehicle handles or sounds .. that said, most make their final decision when they actually "feel/touch and drive the vehicles" .. it's a never a perfect science.
#2932 of 16984 Re: Real World Comparisons [riez]
Nov 08, 2004 (8:05 am)
"I can see reasonably informed rational buyers comparing FWDers like TL, TSX (the Euro-Accord), and ES to each other, but find it hard to see them comparing a RWD car, say a 330i or IS300, to a FWD car, like the ES330 or TSX. One drive in each will tell you how dramatically different are the two cars."
Wait, so someone who compares a TL to let's say a 330i is irrational??? Let's face it the majority of people buying cars don't buy a car based on FWD or RWD but rather on which car they like better. To most buyers driving dynamics don't even matter in the sense you talk about because the *majority* of buyers don't take off-ramps 80MPH and basically, don't drive aggressively. Typically, safety, ride, comfort, and features are on most buyers minds. I don't think when a buyer doesn't care about their car being FWD or RWD, they are being irrational.
And in the real car buying world, buyers compare cars more in terms of price then size or what wheels are being driven by the engine.
#2933 of 16984 Re: Real World Comparisons ....Maxhonda99 ...
Nov 08, 2004 (10:04 am)
........ The one thing about all this RWD discussion forgets is: Geographics ...
Most buyers in Denver, Chicago and Richmond probably haven't forgotten that 20/30 inches of snow they will be seeing - soon .....
#2934 of 16984 Re: Driving Dynamics [riez]
Nov 08, 2004 (10:36 am)
1. Well, how about a series that's actually based on cars that regular folks like you and I own - The SPEED World Challenge Touring Car Championship? The TSX's driven by Kleinubing and Plumb won just as many races as the BMW 3-series. The Mazda 6, Protege, and Nissan Altima are also very competitive.
2. Of course, when discussing FWD performance, the Mini immediately comes to mind. Still, even the "underpowered base model" will outhandle any car in this forum's segment, and is a blast to drive.
Also, the Volvo V40 T5, Saab 9-3, Mazda 6, and TSX all offer performance that's comparable to any car in this forum's segment. Now, I'll concede that perhaps a professional driver on a closed course could extract a .10 or .20 sec advantage out of the RWD cars, but not you or me...especially on public roads.
3. You claim to be a performance-minded enthusiast, yet when you said, "you have to have the 6-speed manual in order to wring the most out of the high-reving engine," you make it sound like getting a root canal. I didn't enjoy my root canal, but the slick 6-speed MT and sewing-machine smooth 7500 RPM rev limit is what sold me on the TSX.
Nov 08, 2004 (11:03 am)
fedlawman... I prefer 6 and 8 cyl engines. More useable torque, esp. at low(er) RPMs. The TSX would be a blast to drive hard on the track, though you'd be shifting a lot and running very high RPMs. I don't do too much of that. I tend to stay in 3rd and 4th gears when "playing" with my car on the twisties in the real world. What are the RPMs for a TSX 6-speed in 3rd gear at 60 mph? 4th at 80 mph? (I do miss my old '98 540i6. Great engine and transmission.) Despite all the attempts, no one yet has repealed the laws of physics for front-heavy powerful FWDers. Ugly things like torque steer. That is why Acura, Audi, and Subaru use AWD.
rroyce10... Geographics can have a huge impact on sales. Friend of mine lives in a metro area that has about 100,000 people (say within 50 miles radius), but that area does NOT have a single Audi, BMW, MB, Acura, Infiniti, or Lexus dealer. She is forced to consider cars like CTS or LS because she doesn't want to drive 75-100 miles for sales and service. There really aren't that many dealers for some marques (e.g., Infiniti or Lexus), esp. when compared to Cadillac or Lincoln.
#2936 of 16984 Luxury, FWD, and The Average Buyer/Driver
Nov 08, 2004 (11:06 am)
If all we care about is the average driver going about their normal routine, then why don't all you luxury FWD advocates push decent cars like Kia Amati and Hyundai XG350? Just compare room, ride, and luxury equipment. You'd save a fortune compared to ES330, I35, loaded TL. You could buy the bigger, more luxurious car for about same as the smallish 4-cyl Acura TSX (Euro-Accord). I'd love to hear why the ES330 is so much better car than the XG or Amati! I've put 60,000 nearly trouble-free miles on my '00 Hyundai Sonata GLS V6 5-speed manual, TC/ABS, leather, sunroof, etc. I'd take that for $20,000 over an ES330 for $35,000 any day!!!
#2937 of 16984 Re: Driving Dynamics [fedlawman]
Nov 08, 2004 (11:12 am)
"Well, how about a series that's actually based on cars that regular folks like you and I own - The ? The TSX's driven by Kleinubing and Plumb won just as many races as the BMW 3-series."
As has been pointed out here numerous times, the cars are specifically handicapped to make the races compeitive. You win a few races, you are given ballast. SCCA rules are designed to produce competitve races, not discover which car is faster.
http://www.speedvisionwc.com/media/2004/04-seb-pkit.pdf ( page 7 )
Why do you keep ignoring this fact?
#2938 of 16984 Re: Luxury, FWD, and The Average Buyer/Driver [riez]
Nov 08, 2004 (11:34 am)
You are comparing a ES330, TL, I35 to XG350's and AManti's??
Do you forget about something called Luxury, Safety, & features? Let's not forget the biggest advantage to the luxury cars as compared to the Hyundai's and Kia's-QUALITY.
"I'd love to hear why the ES330 is so much better car than the XG or Amati!"
-the ES330 doesn't have Chevy Corsica rear ends from like a decade and a half ago.
-The ES330 has more features. HIDs, VSC, side curtain airbags, Mark Levinson stereo, rear sunshade, auto dimming mirrors, memory seats, dual front power windows.
-The Es330 is safer. Hey, it's got one of the best safety ratings around.
-It's higher quality(much). Better leather, real wood, quieter. Better fit & finish.
-It's got prestige. Who want's to ride around in a Kia or Hyundai? I'm sure even most buyers of those cars would rather be in something else.
".......then why don't all you luxury FWD advocates push decent cars like Kia Amati and Hyundai XG350?"
Simple. the Kia and Hyundai aren't LUXURY FWD cars.
#2939 of 16984 FWD vs RWD. Not that important.
Nov 08, 2004 (12:07 pm)
I always get a kick out of people who say a real performance car cannot have FWD. Unless you are taking your car to the track, nobody can realistically get significant benefits from a RWD car vs FWD. And even then its questionable. I think the whole thing is for bragging rights. Kinda like the whole horsepower war that is going on right now. How many people are going to use more than 250 hp to merit the additional 25% cost that a 300+ hp V8 allows.
In fact, i just got back from the Lexus event in Houston. I test drove about 15 cars on the test track. I thought the FWD drive acura TL handled vastly better on the course than the Mercedes 320 and the Lexus GS 300.
I could feel the difference in the spring rates (very soft on the 320 and 300) but as far as FWD vs RWD, i did not experience any significant understeer on the acura vs others.