Last post on Dec 06, 2013 at 7:58 AM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
BMW 3 Series, Infiniti G37, Acura TL, Lexus IS 350, Mercedes-Benz C-Class, Cadillac CTS, Volvo S60, Audi A4, Acura TSX, Car Comparisons, Sedan
#16269 of 16984 Re: Infiniti G37 Journey vs. Acura TL 'Base' [sweendogy]
Jun 24, 2013 (3:14 pm)
speaking of volvo s60- they sold more of them (last month, May sales) then honda sold Tl's and TSXs--
end of Acura coming soon?? - for more sales numbers click on link
The Volvo S60 is an a very good car- looks good, drives good, good value depending on model/options. The Acura TL, even with the DESPERATELY NEEDED 2012 nose job and butt lift, is still not an appealing design...not as ugly as the 2009 TL, but few if any cars are uglier than that!
At the height of its popularity, the TL sold 78,218 units in 2005. Even the 2008 model sold 48,766 cars. But the 2009-2012 TL has only sold in the low 30s each year, topping out at 34,049 in 2010.
2013 YTD Figures at May EOM aren't looking very good either. So far, the TL has sold 12,434 units this year which is down 15.3% (or 2242 units) compared to this time last year.
My beloved, but ignored and soon to be discontinued, TSX is faring much worse. Year to date, it has only sold 7,746 compared to 15,012 at this point in 2012. That's a decrease of 48.4% or 7266 fewer cars.
The ILX is hardly setting any records, but it has sold 9,217 units YTD. That is almost 2000 more sales than the TSX has lost compared to last year, so people are obviously buying the ILX instead of the TSX. But the ILX desperately needs to replace the underpowered 150hp 2.0L engine used in all models with the 5-speed A/T! I've driven a 2013 ILX Premium with the 2.0L 5AT and I was genuinely impressed with the car until I pulled onto the highway! 0-60mph takes 9.5 seconds, dead-even with the Kia Rio and Hyundai Accent with 6-speed A/T! Even the cheap-as-dirt Nissan Versa 1.6 CVT can hang neck-and-neck at 9.8 seconds.
That kind of performance is tolerable, if mediocre, on a $15k car. But on a $30k 'Premium' entry-level luxury or near-luxury model, it's simpy UNACCEPTABLE! Especially from a company that is known for making some great high-performance 4-cylinder engines!
Acura was doing just fine with until 2009 when the godawful "Power Plenum" (aka- 'The Shield' and 'The Beak') corporate fascia debuted! Despite immediate negative response from the media and consumers and plunging sales figures, they defiantly insisted that it was the new look of Acura....and it wasn't nor has it been pretty since! =(
I have owned seven Honda/Acura vehicles in my 24 years of driving. I've owned nine different cars in my life, and was a die-hard Honda loyalist from the day I got my license in 1990 until 2006 when I saw the new Civic and walked away! Actually, I drove off the lot in shock and terrified at the prospect of shopping for anything other than a Honda. But after some research and test drives, I found myself right at home with a 2006 Mazda3 and now I have a 2012 CX-9 GT.
But the best car I've ever driven (and the best car ever made, in my humble opinion) was my 1994 Acura Legend L 4-door. I bought it in 1997 when it was returned at the end of a 36-month lease. It was Frost White with Taupe Cloth and 5-speed manual, but that was exactly how I wanted it. I drove until May 2001 when I was t-boned by a speeding F250 work truck running a red light as I was making a left turn. I barely survived, but my Legend did not. =(
It's sad to see Acura where it is today. I've felt much the same way about Honda for the last several years also. But the 2013 Accord is so good and so much better than the 2008-2012 model that it replaced....perhaps there's hope after all?
#16270 of 16984 Re: Infiniti G37 Journey vs. Acura TL 'Base' [igozoomzoom]
Jun 24, 2013 (5:13 pm)
Good post "igozoomzoom."
I honestly think Acura would sell many more cars if they rolled back time and started making their 2006 lineup again...LOL.
The MDX is the only Acura worth a look in its segment right now, and even it is overdue for a refresh.
#16271 of 16984 Re: Infiniti G37 Journey vs. Acura TL 'Base' [fedlawman]
Jun 24, 2013 (5:35 pm)
The RDX is selling very, very well and the MDX is still a very good seller. Guess which models Acura makes more profit on? So sales of certain models doesn't necessarily spell disaster as it's overall profit that counts. Of course making good proift on all your lines is preferable but as long as you're making money it's not exactly like you're going to go out of business. Accords didn't so so well over the past 5 years but several other models like the CRX, Odyssey, Civic and Pilot sold well and with good profit margins.
Bottom line, just looking at sales numbers of a couple of models is a fools delight. Acura is one good redesign away from being on track again with the TL and one good engine to make the ILX a good seller. Along with the very profitable MDX and RDX sales they will be just fine.
#16272 of 16984 Re: Infiniti G37 Journey vs. Acura TL 'Base' [m6user]
Jun 24, 2013 (5:49 pm)
the new MDX came out this week. All new design. Basically a "supersized" RDX, with the hi-tech AWD, etc. But same basic platform and drivetrain, just more goodies and room.
they do need to hurry up and redesign the TL/TSX (I believe they are combining the 2 into 1 car) into something competitive and exciting. They can then also tweak the ILX (maybe go to the TSX 2.4l engine/6 speed combo).
the TSX-TL (TSL?) can grow a bit, and offer 4 and V6 like the TSX used to. Or, follow the trend and go NA and Turbo.
The ILX is improved this year (content wise). Pretty much they eliminated the base (strippo) model but kept the price close.
so, there is hope now that they did the "big" car, and both SUVs. The other sedans are definitely due, since the TSX was done for 2009 so it is on it's 5th year, and TL the 6th.
#16273 of 16984 Re: Infiniti G37 Journey vs. Acura TL 'Base' [m6user]
Jun 24, 2013 (6:42 pm)
While I agree the mdx (and its now a new mdx) and rdx sell well, very well they do not sell in numbers to keep the brand alone- look at the sales numbers for every other car they produce and they are mid pack at best in terms of sales- mind you mid pack means massive discounts and minimal If any profit. Honda on the other hand no matter how bad the previous accord and civic looked they stll were near the top of the sales chain. I would also note that when the last civic was being slammed they quickly fixed it because its the real bread and butter of the brand.
Acura is one good redesign away from selling some cars for sure- but they have to redesign a bunch of cars to do that.
Sales numbers tell the story, they sold 200k crvs in 2011 and when they did a redu they were very careful not to mess that up. Something they failed to do with the tsx and TL.
#16274 of 16984 Re: Infiniti G37 Journey vs. Acura TL 'Base' [sweendogy]
Jun 24, 2013 (7:21 pm)
means massive discounts and minimal If any profit.
You champion solid research all the time....do you have any information that indicates Acura is making "minimal, if any profit". If they are midpack then everyone below must be in Chapter 11. I think a little exaggeration is being played here.
but they have to redesign a bunch of cars to do that.
Ummhh...no, just a couple. Where do you get a "bunch of cars"? They just totally redesigned the MDX, RDX and RLX. The RDX outsells the BMW X3, the Q5 and the EX37. Nothing midpack there. The MDX is right up there in sales with most of them except the RX. The RX has no little brother to share sales with(yet, NX is coming). If it did the MDX and RX would be pretty close in sales IMO. So saying that all their lines are "midpack" is probably another exaggeration.
They have the ILX which admittedly needs some tweaking. They already have the 2.4l in the sport model of the ILX. They should just make that the base engine with a 6 spd auto. They are apparently ditching the TSX so the only car they really need to redo completely(and with a pleasing design hopefully) is the TL or whatever they are going to call the replacement for the TL/TSX. That's one car....not a bunch of cars.
#16275 of 16984 Re: Infiniti G37 Journey vs. Acura TL 'Base' [m6user]
Jun 25, 2013 (5:27 am)
M6user, why even go the distant in debating someone who looks at one side of the Balance Sheet.
#16276 of 16984 Re: Infiniti G37 Journey vs. Acura TL 'Base' [fedlawman]
Jun 25, 2013 (6:47 am)
The MDX is the only Acura worth a look in its segment right now, and even it is overdue for a refresh.
As someone else already mentioned, the redesigned 2014 MDX has just been released in the last week or so. It looks like a 5/4 version of the RDX, but that's not a bad thing based on current RDX sales.
YTD sales of the RDX as of May month end were up 122.1% over the same period in 2012. 18,177 units vs. 8,183 last year!
I applaud Acura for trying something different with the original RDX and using a turbocharged 4-cylinder, but buyers in this segment want smooth V6 power. Just like the Mazda CX-7, a high-performance compact/upscale CUV is interesting in theory but the reality doesn’t quite cut it.
The MDX was definitely due for a significant update after seven years with little change. I test drove a 2012 MDX last November when I was in the market for a 3-row CUV and I still chose the 2012 Mazda CX-9 GT. The MDX stickered for $44k and the CX-9 stickered for $39k and the CX-9 had more features, better handling and the interior materials and assembly quality were also on part with the Acura. The lack of a FWD version of the MDX was also a negative.
The ‘real’ price difference also made my decision much easier. This was in 11/2012 and I could barely get the 2012 MDX for $2500 off sticker (around $41,500). My CX-9 stickered for $38,785 and I drove it off the lot for $29,706 plus sales tax! I paid cash for the CX-9, but probably would have leased the MDX if I had picked it. Grandma was generous in her will, but not THAT generous!
Back to the current and near-future of Acura….the demise of the TSX will take a sedan AND wagon out of the lineup. Will the ILX, TLX and RLX sedans and RDX and MDX crossovers be enough to keep the brand viable and return it to actual relevance?
Then again, Buick is doing well with less- a compact sedan (Verano), a sporty/performance-oriented mid-size sedan (Regal) and near-full-size sedan (LaCrosse) along with a large Crossover (Enclave) and mini-crossover (Encore). In particular, the Encore is a joke compared to the RDX and the LaCrosse is no RLX. But somehow, Buick is more desirable than Acura to most buyers….
#16277 of 16984 Re: Infiniti G37 Journey vs. Acura TL 'Base' [igozoomzoom]
Jun 25, 2013 (6:57 am)
"Buick is more desirable than Acura to most buyers"….
oh really? I am pretty sure Honda was not begging the Goverment for $50 million to keep them a float during the financial meltdown. And please dont get me wrong, I am not throwing insults, just facts.
#16278 of 16984 Re: Infiniti G37 Journey vs. Acura TL 'Base' [m6user]
Jun 25, 2013 (9:15 am)
well M6 - i am the champion for research or atleast I do want a base for strong commentary as opposed to random thoughts.. case in point- the 2013 TL SHAWD with tech pack, we can mosltly agree would be a good example to use- it has a MSRP of over 44k, invoice of 41,6 and according to true car for my area (use 02144) you can get it for 39,588 (3 dealers willing to do this deal) - thats over a 10% discount- the BMW 328 is down 4%, the Audi down 6 and ATS Caddy is 3%.. i just dropped some knowledge on you. I understand you cannot truly tell what they are making or losing on these cars but it tells you something when it comes to discounting and fact is they are not making as much (could be losing?) as they would like given the above figures. second paragraph above- Again as i stated the 2 SUVS sell well, but lets remember how many MDXs are they selling?? 50k last year mdx - very good year -vs the x5s 44,445- the rdx 29,520 again very good year as they avg around 15k since inception the bmw x3 35,173[. BMW sells 100k 3 series in the states vs the tls 33k -- so are they really beating them by that much to justify a TL that sells a third of the 3 series?? lets add in the tsx 28,865 sales from 2012.. so 2 car lines make up HALF of 3 series sales. Acura no longer sells (haha) the ZDX-- they sold 379 RL for 2012. 379 wonder what the margins on the balance sheet on that one are (was). (all numbers above are US numbers).
I stand by my statements from 5 years ago- they need a convertable, a sports coupe, a midlevel sedan with looks, a flagship people want and a supercar (which is comming).. Thats a bunch in my estimation maybe we have differ thoughts on what is alot but when we are talking half a line of cars its alot.
and for billy both sides of the balance sheet need to equal out to make it balance sheet.