Last post on Dec 04, 2013 at 8:41 AM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
BMW 3 Series, Infiniti G37, Acura TL, Lexus IS 350, Mercedes-Benz C-Class, Cadillac CTS, Volvo S60, Audi A4, Acura TSX, Car Comparisons, Sedan
#15811 of 16982 Re: BMW and me.... [tlong]
Mar 25, 2013 (6:12 am)
I second that. I'm not objecting to people buying/leasing cars often, I actually have done that, too. I'm definintely not a 10-year holder of a purchased 3-year old car, the longest stint I have done so far was 6 years, I also owned another car until it was 8 years old (I had it for a bit more than 4 years).
It is wonderful that system made it possible and convenient for somebody to drive a virtually new car all the time (and a nice one) and move from one to another in a seamless fashion, without big hassles. It is also true that some manufacturers subsidize those lease deals, which is effectively lowering their sticker prices without actually doing so. Even with all of that, constantly paying a portion of three years of depreciation (even if it is lowered by a subsidy) is more expensive than buying a car (cash or loan) and say staying just couple of years beyond the warranty expiration. The sweet spot would be eight to ten years, but even six would do for most of the situations, except extreme ones. Many say "you can't own a car beyond warranty, it will fall apart and cost you a fortune" I say there is no evidence of such and let an extended warranty pricing be a guide. Since that is a very profitable product (number of people get fed by just selling them), and 100K mile extension with small deductible on ELLPS will not exceed $4K (most likely it will be about three grand) adding that plus extra planned maintenance of about another 2-3 grand (also most likely less), gives us AT MOST 7 grand average price of extended ownership. In fact, majority of people will pay much less, some unlucky ones will pay more. Nobody will convince me that two times (even) subsidized three year depreciation plus interest (money factor) and fees (two acquisition fees - $1500, two disposal fees - $500-$1000) is less that one time 6-year unsubsidized depreciation plus interest, but no fees plus extra maintenance and repairs/ext. warranty. And 6-years old well maintained car is still nice enough, IMHO.
The only time the lease thing MAY be a trully cheaper alternative, is when the car is simply not driven by the leasee/owner, or to be more precise, when it is one of those (sorry Nurse and Doggy) "leader ad" deal, when the mileage limit is something like 8-10K per year. That will change the math in lease's favor, even with fees. However, for a normal commuter living in places like mine (no real public transit, 15-20 mile one-way just to get to work), the three year lease, even heavily subsidized, is a much more expensive proposition vs. extended ownership. It offers a convenience to those who will not be able to stay with their three-year old car, but even then it can be a tossup. Hwere is an example: in late 2008 I bought the STI, which I sold in early 2012 (3 years and change). In November of 2008, Lehman Brothers just went bankrupt, nobody was buying anything, Subaru offered $2500 off price that was already 2% under invoice PLUS 0% APR financing for 63 months. Basically $36.5K (plus fees, TTR, roughly $40K total) sticker became $29K ($33 with all taxes and fees). Three years later I sold it for $22.8K, 69% of total transaction price. It just so happened that the Japanese earthquake choked the new car supply to the point that used ones had prices beyond ridiculous. The lease offered at the time of purchase was at somewhere around 50% residual, i.e. $18 grand (not subsidized, and MF and all fees were definitely NOT zero). It was just a fluke, but even if I sold/traded the STI at originally projected value of $18K, the lease MF and fees would still be far more than the financing of the loan. At that time I investigated the lease becuase I did not consider STI to be my long-term choice anyway, but even with that the purchase showed to be much better course of action.
#15812 of 16982 Re: G37x in snow [kyfdx]
Mar 25, 2013 (5:46 am)
ky.....how'd you do this a.m. driving around?
Noticed you're looking at a "Saaburu". Are you buying it?
Got an invite for a "private event" to see the Acura RLX roll out. Also got an invite to look at the '13 Accord on the form of a $25 Mastercard. That was on top of the $50 Mastercard I got from Ford at the Chicago Auto Show.
Car companies sure like to hand out money to people who aren't in the market.
Dino...while I rarely keep a car past its warranty period, I agree...today there's little reason not to. All cars are more reliable today than at any time in history.
#15813 of 16982 Re: G37x in snow [graphicguy]
by kyfdx@Edmunds HOST
Mar 25, 2013 (6:42 am)
Roads were just wet on the "good" side of the river, so no issues... Still have my snows on the BMW... It's my wife that drives the G37X and she works from home....
I made my offer on the Saabaru at 8:30 pm on Saturday night... guessing he wasn't too happy to get an offer of $500 less than asking... because, I haven't heard back from him... yet... (but, not everyone works 24/7.. lol)
#15814 of 16982 Re: G37x in snow [kyfdx]
Mar 25, 2013 (6:53 am)
Good to hear everything is safe in the "holler". No issues up here, either.
Given the dwindling market for Saabs (regardless of their origins), I'm suprised the dealer didn't offer to split the difference with you. If you get it, can't wait to hear the road story bringing it back.
#15815 of 16982 Re: Used vs. New [fedlawman]
Mar 25, 2013 (7:20 am)
Fed, its simple, because they want the latest and greatest, the ones who much have that are the ones who keep company's like BMW and Audi's alive. Now granted, I will be in the market for a new car soon, I'm running low on my free days from national.
I plan on buying, and keeping my next car, just like I did with my 330, so I have the new 3 series wagon, with the diesel engine or the 3 series GT with the diesel engine on my radar. I don't plan on modify the car, like I did with the 330, just plan on driving it.
#15816 of 16982 Re: Used vs. New [flightnurse]
Mar 25, 2013 (7:29 am)
I don't think those are coming with diesels any time soon. Wagon will probably be only 328i/xi and GT will be 328i/xi or 335i/xi. Diesel is not even in new sedan yet, I'm not aware of plans to introduce it there, so it will take years, if at all, to make it to the wagon or GT. You can hope I'm wrong, of course.
#15817 of 16982 328 Wagon just arrived
Mar 25, 2013 (9:13 am)
New wagon just showed up on BMW website. Only 328 xdrive, but all four trims (modern, sport, luxury and M). Pretty high starting price ($42.4K including destination. BTW, what's up with their stupid "starting at" with a price without destination? How can I get one without destination? Don't you hate it when they start off with a blatant lie?).
However, I'm sure when you price sedan to match wagons standard features (all wheel drive, fold down rear seat, sunroof), the differential is about 2 grand. I understand one may or may not want those, especially x-drive, but it's only fair to add to make apples to apples comparison. In "Dino's minimum config", i.e. red metallic, premium and lighting packages, anti-theft system, sport trim, including upgraded seats, sport transmission package (apples to apples), the price differential is about 2 grand ($49.6K wagon, $47.7K sedan). Steep, if you ask me for a (nice, admittedly) turbocharged four cylinder engine. Nice car, but no thanks for now - I stay with my E91, which cost me a few good thousands less, has extra navigation, a few more conveniences, including keyless entry, shades, homelink, parking sensors, basically another several grand of options on top of what's already high price. I can only imagine the price for 335i GT, when it comes in . I probably will have to wait even longer, if I wanted one.
I also noticed they finally made split rear folddown seat standard on 328/335. Interestingly enough, 320i does not have it standard. Talking about leader ad there... They really make it so they can advertise "starting at" with $299/month, or maybe even $259/m lease if you don't want leather. After loading with leather and stuff, it tops 40 thousand bucks, 45 if you really put "everything" on it, but not by whole lot, so there is real price separation with loaded 328i. To me, it is pointless, but I guess for those looking at white an blue propeller in front and nice handling, but not much more, they get something there. It may be even selling OK.
#15818 of 16982 Re: BMW and me.... [dino001]
Mar 25, 2013 (10:29 am)
Leasing is more expensive. I most definitely agree. In 18 months (yes math majors, for those who care I've had my 328xi for a year already), when the lease is up on my car I'm going to buy (finance). So in my case, the lease will have worked out less expensive than if I would have bought the car. There are 2011 328xis out there NOW selling for close to what my lease buyout is (in 18 months).
You are right about out of warranty repairs being cheaper than buying a new car. What's the WORST case scenario with a BMW? iDrive crashes at 75K miles and needs to be replaced? What's that going to cost? $4000? So even if you have to outlay $4000, then pay for the 75K oil change, it is still cheaper than spending $50,000 on a new one. People like things shiny and new. They like to not pay for out of pocket repair costs. Most times because they live outside their means in the 1st place.
#15819 of 16982 Re: G37x in snow [graphicguy]
Mar 25, 2013 (10:40 am)
Half of the fun is getting there. Literally. I actually went & drove the car for our esteemed host. My NAV routed me through beautiful, downtown Lodi, NJ. I think Lodi is Spanish for "roll 'em up."
#15820 of 16982 Re: BMW and me.... [nyccarguy]
Mar 25, 2013 (11:05 am)
Leasing is more expensive. I most definitely agree. In 18 months (yes math majors, for those who care I've had my 328xi for a year already), when the lease is up on my car I'm going to buy (finance).
Wow, I'm impressed. I know I already did say "I told you so", so this time I'm just "I'm glad you saw the light". No, seriously - from what you wrote last year about your finances and preferences, I thought right away then that if you trully liked the car and it proves to be good to you, buyout will be best option. You got a great lease deal, the buyout will only take away a little bit, as you'd pay back some of that subsidy from the inflated residual. But you still keep the other discount and you still keep low finance charge. The only reason to back off is, if over those next 18 months the car developes some serious issues, and I mean serious ones, not just window motors, or hose faults. Hopefully in 18 months you won't see any issues to spook you out of it.
BTW, hopefully not jinxing it, my only visit to a dealer in 19k miles/17 months was to do a basic maintenance. Not a single reliability-related issue - and why should it, really. This is advantage of buying a seasoned model, one that they worked out all the bugs before. The car has couple of annoyances, but they are due to design, not reliability. I can't stand the Point of Interest search on my Navigation. I think it's trully pathetic (categories, A-Z search, time it takes to display results, etc.) and several hundreds for an update of such a subpar system is simply ridiculous. It is 10% value and 90% brand, I'm not as inclined to pay for such mix.
My ipod nano sometimes does funny things - when I turn the car off and back on, the podcasts turn into fast forward (high pitch fast speach). All I need is to reset it by switching back to music and back to the podcast again. It is annoying, but I doubts dealer would even be able to replicate the issue and if he did, he'd say it's my ipod's fault, their car is perfect - so I don't bother.
What could go wrong? A lot of things, engine, transmission, electrical gremlins. All of it could be really costly, over ten grand even in really bad scenario. However, the real question is what is a chance? Small, very small in fact. Extended warranties are sold as insurances against catastrophic issues, but most of the time they serve as prepaid service for small nuisance stuff, costing less than the warranty itself. It is a peace of mind, indeed, but somewhat expensive. I'd rather buy such peace by having money in the bank and using it only when actually needed.