Last post on May 09, 2013 at 9:32 AM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
BMW 3 Series, Infiniti G37, Acura TL, Lexus IS 350, Mercedes-Benz C-Class, Cadillac CTS, Volvo S60, Audi A4, Acura TSX, Car Comparisons, Sedan
#15491 of 16087 Re: Pretty dead here [flightnurse]
Jan 11, 2013 (7:26 pm)
I thought all were based on the main company, e.g. GM, Toyota, Nissan...but it may not be that definitive
Porsche would have needed to make the largest increase in mpg, however, the fact that VW absorbed the sports-car company means there’s a good chance that Porsche’s fuel economy will now simply be part of the conglomerate’s overall average.
"Good chance" does not mean it is; not certain how it's determined
#15492 of 16087 Re: Diesels [dino001]
Jan 11, 2013 (7:29 pm)
Let's see aren't the new direct injection gas engines ( mostly) louder with a clattering on startup when cold, more sensitive to fuel quality( and carbonong up) and likely to be less long lived? I think until you drive a modern 4 cyl diesel, you may want to reserve judgement, at least the auto mags from Europe I.e Car magazine, are saying that the 4 cyl diesel 3 series is the one to have ( unless you afford the M of course). And yes they prefer the manual. I think there may have been something wrong with your family member's Audi, as that is not how I experience my diesel's power, and it is only a 40hp three cyl, but there is more than 1000 rpm of usually power, or perhaps it was just the corporate VW diesel was not really suited to a car the size and weight of the Audi, though I am sure the newer versions would be better ( they are no longer the top of the class for modern diesels, good but not the best).
In any case what is wrong with having the choice of more diesel cars here, no one is going to force you to buy one if you don't want one, why can't those of us that do want one have that choice?
#15493 of 16087 Re: Pretty dead here [flightnurse]
Jan 12, 2013 (9:55 am)
FN....just got home from the CES show in Vegas (~150,000 attendees). The cabbies are, in my estimation, the best gages for how the Vegas economy is doing. According to them, Vegas is coming along nicely with the recovery.
Anyone who's been there knows the range of vehicles they use as taxis are all over the map. My limo guy picked me up at the McCairn in a 735i. Town cars aren't the limo of choice these days, so it seems.
Asking one of the Prius taxi drivers if he'd consider a diesel, his answer was swift and emphatic....NO!
His reasoning was the hybrids and gasoline cars have the same longevity these days. Plus, the additional cost of buying diesel fuel offsets any additional MPG.
Segueing back to ELLPS, our 335i and S4 both get 20-21 MPG+ in the city, and nearly 30 MPG highway. These are performance cars capable of 0-60 sub 5 sec times that will cruise all day at 130 MPH + in quiet and comfort.
Manufacturers have tried to get diesels to be more appealing in the U.S. I know a small, but vocal segment like them. They won't be successful here, however.
#15494 of 16087 Re: Pretty dead here [graphicguy]
Jan 12, 2013 (11:19 am)
Graphic I was going to head to Vegas for a quick turn around and spend sometime at the CES (use to go for work between 86-96.)
The problem I see, is that a premium is paid for the oil burner engine, then the price of fuel is more too. Just as the cabbie stated, however, with the new CAFE requirements coming into play, 30 MPG wont cut for the car manufactures.
In regards to hybrids, is there a hybrid sold in the US that does not have a CVT?
#15495 of 16087 Re: Diesels [dino001]
Jan 12, 2013 (12:22 pm)
I think unfortunately your "dino" forum name perhaps belies a few dinosaur like biases towards diesels?
The difference in price between a 2011 335d and the 2013 328i is a fraction of the difference between a 328i and a old VW 1.9 TDI. The 2013 328ix I had as a loaner had a sticker price of just under $51,000.
As far as "anybody who enjoyed American-market based ELLPS would never even consider a diesel"? Are you talking about the 95% of American ELLPS buyers that end up in a slush box automatic with a non-sport suspension? Or the 5% that really want and buy a sport sedan? Because if it's the latter, unless you are in a 335is with a real 6-speed manual and sport suspension, you aren't giving up much of anything in the 335d. Its competitive 0-60, MORE than competitive 30-80, can be equipped with a sport package suspension, etc. I think I could spec out a 335d that would put it ahead of 90% of the so called American market ELLPS's on the "S" front. And the fact that it would get 30 mpg overall and near 40 mpg on the highway would be a bonus.
Fact is, the 3 series has become a little less "S" with it's weight gains, size gains, and lower revving turbo engines. Great cars, no doubt, but the real "S" customers are probably heading towards a 135iM on one end, M3 on the other. So, given that, I see the 335d - and even more so the new breed of M diesels, including the M550d - being extremely competitive with their gas counterparts for the average American buyer. Especially those that consider themselves "S" oriented, but come up with various reasons for not getting a stick.
As for more maintenance and reliability, that is the big advantage of diesels. We have plenty of 300TD's and SDL's in our area that are still chugging along just fine at 200-300k+ miles. Their counterparts - old 525i's have been recycled into paperweights long ago.
I just put a deposit on a 2014 Cayman S last night. So obviously I'm not in disagreement with the fact that a high revving, naturally aspirated gas engine mated to a real manual transmission is the choice of preference for a sports car. But that's not what most 3.600+ lb ELLPS buyers are looking for, and I think current and future diesel technology will make more and more sense for the ELLPS application.
#15496 of 16087 Re: Diesels [scwmcan]
Jan 12, 2013 (1:17 pm)
1000 rpm was an exagerration, but I basically stand by my comments, also because I know more diesel owners than most Americans - not just my dad, but also number of friends and relatives. Pretty much all of them said the same thing - they all would buy an 8- or 6-cylinder gas cars, if not for the fuel costs. They DO NOT love their diesels same way I loved my WRX, STI, or E9x 328, or some other people love their Camaros, Mustangs, Corvettes, or even Acuras or Lexus. They buy those diesel cars, because governments in Europe made it impossible (cost prohibitive) to own vehicle like those listed above - not just by fuel taxes, but by excise taxes, registration fees, etc., all tied to engine displacement with sharp increases for everything above 2 liters. In that world diesel beats gasoline, delivering more torque and better fuel economy, indeed, mostly because gas engine fights with one hand tied behind the back. In the past, diesel fuel was also 20% less expensive than gas, not the case anymore, but it helped establish present dominance of the diesels there. However, the math is working less and less and there is a slight reversal in preferences. Those things take time, though.
Anyway, call me a fossil. I'm not saying I'd never get a diesel, but as long as I can afford it, as long US government doesn't do same market rigging, as European, I take gasoline engine.
#15497 of 16087 Re: Diesels [habitat1]
Jan 12, 2013 (1:15 pm)
We have plenty of 300TD's and SDL's in our area that are still chugging along just fine at 200-300k+ miles.
You missed my point, exactly. Those 300 TD are old style diesels, true million milers, indestructible machines that would run on vegetable oil. They were also noisy, slow, awkward. The new E350 Bluetec is nothing of that. Yes, it is quiter, fast, nice, but its durability is not million miles, by a long shot. The old magic of "running forever" is gone. Even commercial vehicle drivers (bus, truck and such) confirm that the new machines are nowhere near in terms of durability in comparison to the old ones.
#15498 of 16087 Re: Diesels [dino001]
Jan 12, 2013 (4:34 pm)
Your sentiments are understood. I would too pick naturally aspired strong engine cars over cars boosted with turbo/dual turbo, diesel engine and combined engines. EV is in its infancy and it wouldn't even be considered. Fact is, the car industry doing business in the States does have to follow mpg stipulations set by our gov't, and the diesel engine seems most promising in helping them adhere to the scheduled guidelines. The gov't is not acting to help drivers save money. If enough people drive diesel, the fuel will be widely available and being a byproduct or not it will cost a lot too at the pumps. Americans like muscle cars, and if diesel cars dominate the market without offering desirable zoom power, people may scream for the return of muscle cars. Curious which current diesel or turbo diesel car you think is the best?
#15499 of 16087 Re: Diesels [buya]
Jan 12, 2013 (5:53 pm)
Curious which current diesel or turbo diesel car you think is the best?
There isn't much to choose from, at the moment. Traditionally MB and VAG have good diesel motors, I'm sure BMW can hold its own, too. They're all in different market segments. Can't say I have any real opinion, what is better. I was susprised to hear that PSA (Peugeot/Citroen) was considered one of best in its class. Honda and Subaru have late diesel entries in JDM and Europe, heard good things about those (it would be really interesting to hear how diesel boxer sounds). All majors (GM, Ford, Toyota, Nissan) have diesels in other markets, but bringing them here is not so simple, due to diferent environmental rules.
#15500 of 16087 Re: Diesels [dino001]
Jan 12, 2013 (6:13 pm)
The new E350 Bluetec is nothing of that. Yes, it is quiter, fast, nice, but its durability is not million miles, by a long shot. The old magic of "running forever" is gone.
Do you have the data to back up that statement?