Last post on Dec 04, 2013 at 8:41 AM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
BMW 3 Series, Infiniti G37, Acura TL, Lexus IS 350, Mercedes-Benz C-Class, Cadillac CTS, Volvo S60, Audi A4, Acura TSX, Car Comparisons, Sedan
#15487 of 16982 Re: Diesels [dino001]
Jan 11, 2013 (1:28 pm)
Would never switch my 328i for it (or previous WRX/STI, or any other good gasoline engine), not in milion years.
Not sure comparing a 328i to an older A4 1.9 TDI is a fair comparison. I'm driving a 2013 328ix loaner today with 1,400 miles on the odometer. Great car, but I have to say that the 335d would be my strong preference for both performance and fuel economy over a 328i. Had to shut off the engine start stop feature to maintain my sanity in stop and go traffic. There is no diesel clatter in my friend's 2011 335d and it definitely has more punch when you need to accelerate on the highway. He gets an honest 40 mpg on highway cruising at 75 mph and 30 mpg overall. The trip computer on the 328ix loaner shows 23.3 mpg overall; probably heavy city driving.
That said, the current 8,400 rpm NA V8 M3 with a 6-speed manual is about as sweet as a 3 series gasoline engine can get. I'd be the first to admit that if a really sporty, engaging drive is what you want, hard to beat a naturally aspirated high rpm manual transmission car like the M3.
#15488 of 16982 Re: Diesels [dino001]
Jan 11, 2013 (3:46 pm)
Dino of course some of the engine in Europe aren't as refined as others. To pass judgement on the car you drove in europe with one that are imported here is like saying, there isn't much difference in a M6 and a Yaris...
Drive a Passt or Jetta diesel you will be quite surprised on how well they run and really how quite it is for a diesel.
#15489 of 16982 Re: Pretty dead here [ivan_99]
Jan 11, 2013 (3:50 pm)
Ivan, I'm not too sure about this, if it is true please post a link so I can read it. Because I'm sure Infiniti and Lexus would be linked to Nissan and Toyota. Since Infiniti, Lexus and Porsche are imported as their own brand, one would assume that they are separate brands.
#15490 of 16982 Re: Diesels [habitat1]
Jan 11, 2013 (6:07 pm)
It would not be fair, pricewise, compare 328i to 335d. To me valid choice would be 335i vs. 335d - that would be no contest, IMHO. I understand all the limitations of comparisons between new BMW and old Audi. However, to be fair i terms of pricing, four cylinder diesel is one to make real comaprisons to the lower-powered gasoline engines, whether smaller 6-cyl, or turbo four.
My point is, US based consumers THINK they want diesel because they see them in Europe and assume that's what Old World people want. All I'm saying, popularity of diesel there is artificially stimulated by public policy, taxation and other incentives. Anybody, who enjoyed American-market based ELLPS, would never even consider a diesel, except perhaps commercial vehicles, like taxi cabs and such. Moreover, the traditional advantages of diesels are going away. Bottom line - still clacking engine, less so than before, but more upfront cost, more maintenance, more prone to failures, sensitive to fuel quality, who knows if will last as long as older generations.
#15491 of 16982 Re: Pretty dead here [flightnurse]
Jan 11, 2013 (6:26 pm)
I thought all were based on the main company, e.g. GM, Toyota, Nissan...but it may not be that definitive
Porsche would have needed to make the largest increase in mpg, however, the fact that VW absorbed the sports-car company means there’s a good chance that Porsche’s fuel economy will now simply be part of the conglomerate’s overall average.
"Good chance" does not mean it is; not certain how it's determined
#15492 of 16982 Re: Diesels [dino001]
Jan 11, 2013 (6:29 pm)
Let's see aren't the new direct injection gas engines ( mostly) louder with a clattering on startup when cold, more sensitive to fuel quality( and carbonong up) and likely to be less long lived? I think until you drive a modern 4 cyl diesel, you may want to reserve judgement, at least the auto mags from Europe I.e Car magazine, are saying that the 4 cyl diesel 3 series is the one to have ( unless you afford the M of course). And yes they prefer the manual. I think there may have been something wrong with your family member's Audi, as that is not how I experience my diesel's power, and it is only a 40hp three cyl, but there is more than 1000 rpm of usually power, or perhaps it was just the corporate VW diesel was not really suited to a car the size and weight of the Audi, though I am sure the newer versions would be better ( they are no longer the top of the class for modern diesels, good but not the best).
In any case what is wrong with having the choice of more diesel cars here, no one is going to force you to buy one if you don't want one, why can't those of us that do want one have that choice?
#15493 of 16982 Re: Pretty dead here [flightnurse]
Jan 12, 2013 (8:55 am)
FN....just got home from the CES show in Vegas (~150,000 attendees). The cabbies are, in my estimation, the best gages for how the Vegas economy is doing. According to them, Vegas is coming along nicely with the recovery.
Anyone who's been there knows the range of vehicles they use as taxis are all over the map. My limo guy picked me up at the McCairn in a 735i. Town cars aren't the limo of choice these days, so it seems.
Asking one of the Prius taxi drivers if he'd consider a diesel, his answer was swift and emphatic....NO!
His reasoning was the hybrids and gasoline cars have the same longevity these days. Plus, the additional cost of buying diesel fuel offsets any additional MPG.
Segueing back to ELLPS, our 335i and S4 both get 20-21 MPG+ in the city, and nearly 30 MPG highway. These are performance cars capable of 0-60 sub 5 sec times that will cruise all day at 130 MPH + in quiet and comfort.
Manufacturers have tried to get diesels to be more appealing in the U.S. I know a small, but vocal segment like them. They won't be successful here, however.
#15494 of 16982 Re: Pretty dead here [graphicguy]
Jan 12, 2013 (10:19 am)
Graphic I was going to head to Vegas for a quick turn around and spend sometime at the CES (use to go for work between 86-96.)
The problem I see, is that a premium is paid for the oil burner engine, then the price of fuel is more too. Just as the cabbie stated, however, with the new CAFE requirements coming into play, 30 MPG wont cut for the car manufactures.
In regards to hybrids, is there a hybrid sold in the US that does not have a CVT?
#15495 of 16982 Re: Diesels [dino001]
Jan 12, 2013 (11:22 am)
I think unfortunately your "dino" forum name perhaps belies a few dinosaur like biases towards diesels?
The difference in price between a 2011 335d and the 2013 328i is a fraction of the difference between a 328i and a old VW 1.9 TDI. The 2013 328ix I had as a loaner had a sticker price of just under $51,000.
As far as "anybody who enjoyed American-market based ELLPS would never even consider a diesel"? Are you talking about the 95% of American ELLPS buyers that end up in a slush box automatic with a non-sport suspension? Or the 5% that really want and buy a sport sedan? Because if it's the latter, unless you are in a 335is with a real 6-speed manual and sport suspension, you aren't giving up much of anything in the 335d. Its competitive 0-60, MORE than competitive 30-80, can be equipped with a sport package suspension, etc. I think I could spec out a 335d that would put it ahead of 90% of the so called American market ELLPS's on the "S" front. And the fact that it would get 30 mpg overall and near 40 mpg on the highway would be a bonus.
Fact is, the 3 series has become a little less "S" with it's weight gains, size gains, and lower revving turbo engines. Great cars, no doubt, but the real "S" customers are probably heading towards a 135iM on one end, M3 on the other. So, given that, I see the 335d - and even more so the new breed of M diesels, including the M550d - being extremely competitive with their gas counterparts for the average American buyer. Especially those that consider themselves "S" oriented, but come up with various reasons for not getting a stick.
As for more maintenance and reliability, that is the big advantage of diesels. We have plenty of 300TD's and SDL's in our area that are still chugging along just fine at 200-300k+ miles. Their counterparts - old 525i's have been recycled into paperweights long ago.
I just put a deposit on a 2014 Cayman S last night. So obviously I'm not in disagreement with the fact that a high revving, naturally aspirated gas engine mated to a real manual transmission is the choice of preference for a sports car. But that's not what most 3.600+ lb ELLPS buyers are looking for, and I think current and future diesel technology will make more and more sense for the ELLPS application.
#15496 of 16982 Re: Diesels [scwmcan]
Jan 12, 2013 (12:17 pm)
1000 rpm was an exagerration, but I basically stand by my comments, also because I know more diesel owners than most Americans - not just my dad, but also number of friends and relatives. Pretty much all of them said the same thing - they all would buy an 8- or 6-cylinder gas cars, if not for the fuel costs. They DO NOT love their diesels same way I loved my WRX, STI, or E9x 328, or some other people love their Camaros, Mustangs, Corvettes, or even Acuras or Lexus. They buy those diesel cars, because governments in Europe made it impossible (cost prohibitive) to own vehicle like those listed above - not just by fuel taxes, but by excise taxes, registration fees, etc., all tied to engine displacement with sharp increases for everything above 2 liters. In that world diesel beats gasoline, delivering more torque and better fuel economy, indeed, mostly because gas engine fights with one hand tied behind the back. In the past, diesel fuel was also 20% less expensive than gas, not the case anymore, but it helped establish present dominance of the diesels there. However, the math is working less and less and there is a slight reversal in preferences. Those things take time, though.
Anyway, call me a fossil. I'm not saying I'd never get a diesel, but as long as I can afford it, as long US government doesn't do same market rigging, as European, I take gasoline engine.