Last post on Dec 04, 2013 at 8:41 AM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
BMW 3 Series, Infiniti G37, Acura TL, Lexus IS 350, Mercedes-Benz C-Class, Cadillac CTS, Volvo S60, Audi A4, Acura TSX, Car Comparisons, Sedan
#15484 of 16982 Re: Diesels [dino001]
Jan 11, 2013 (11:31 am)
Thank you. That was a helpful review. I almost forgot the turbo diesel lag that I felt in the bimmer I once had a fraction of a century ago. It was a good car, but the lag was still felt at times. And diesel wasn't widely available at regular gas stations either. There's no reason for me to reconsider buying a diesel yet, and if it's mpg I'm after, I may consider a reliable hybrid like Prius. I was about to reconsider turbo diesel cars. So thanks again.
How do you guys feel about the Lexus 300h? Is it a prettied up Camry hybrid? Which would you buy?
#15485 of 16982 Re: Diesels [m6user]
Jan 11, 2013 (12:32 pm)
Perhaps you're right, but VAG's 1.9TDI (previous gen 4-cylinder diesel) was a highly acclaimed motor, a special favorite in high-mileage used car markets, like my Old Country's (Poland). My dad's is abot 100k miles, which is nothing for those engines. Granted, that engine is also an older-generation, developed prior common rail technology. It is known for high durability and good resistance to abuse due to substandard fuels and hard working conditions. All great, but the price was noise, vibrations and short torque curve.
The new enviro-friendly diesels are known for overcoming many of those issues (lower noise, not as much vibrations, better power delivery), but the price paid is steep - high maintenance and much reduced durability. So, if having to choose between noisy durable diesel, or quiet fragile diesel, I choose gasoline engine.
I think many Americans confuse marriage of reason between Europeans and diesel with some kind of love without limits. Europeans opt for diesels mostly because their governments push them to do so by taxes on both vehicles and fuel and because diesels to get better gas mileage. In the world of fuel priced at $6-8, a lawn mower may be attractive for people mover.
#15486 of 16982 Re: Pretty dead here [flightnurse]
Jan 11, 2013 (12:59 pm)
What will Porsche do to meet these tougher CAFE requirement? Import a diesel 911???
I think the average would be included in VW total...so the Golf's, Jetta's, etc would do the heavy CAFE lifting...
#15487 of 16982 Re: Diesels [dino001]
Jan 11, 2013 (1:28 pm)
Would never switch my 328i for it (or previous WRX/STI, or any other good gasoline engine), not in milion years.
Not sure comparing a 328i to an older A4 1.9 TDI is a fair comparison. I'm driving a 2013 328ix loaner today with 1,400 miles on the odometer. Great car, but I have to say that the 335d would be my strong preference for both performance and fuel economy over a 328i. Had to shut off the engine start stop feature to maintain my sanity in stop and go traffic. There is no diesel clatter in my friend's 2011 335d and it definitely has more punch when you need to accelerate on the highway. He gets an honest 40 mpg on highway cruising at 75 mph and 30 mpg overall. The trip computer on the 328ix loaner shows 23.3 mpg overall; probably heavy city driving.
That said, the current 8,400 rpm NA V8 M3 with a 6-speed manual is about as sweet as a 3 series gasoline engine can get. I'd be the first to admit that if a really sporty, engaging drive is what you want, hard to beat a naturally aspirated high rpm manual transmission car like the M3.
#15488 of 16982 Re: Diesels [dino001]
Jan 11, 2013 (3:46 pm)
Dino of course some of the engine in Europe aren't as refined as others. To pass judgement on the car you drove in europe with one that are imported here is like saying, there isn't much difference in a M6 and a Yaris...
Drive a Passt or Jetta diesel you will be quite surprised on how well they run and really how quite it is for a diesel.
#15489 of 16982 Re: Pretty dead here [ivan_99]
Jan 11, 2013 (3:50 pm)
Ivan, I'm not too sure about this, if it is true please post a link so I can read it. Because I'm sure Infiniti and Lexus would be linked to Nissan and Toyota. Since Infiniti, Lexus and Porsche are imported as their own brand, one would assume that they are separate brands.
#15490 of 16982 Re: Diesels [habitat1]
Jan 11, 2013 (6:07 pm)
It would not be fair, pricewise, compare 328i to 335d. To me valid choice would be 335i vs. 335d - that would be no contest, IMHO. I understand all the limitations of comparisons between new BMW and old Audi. However, to be fair i terms of pricing, four cylinder diesel is one to make real comaprisons to the lower-powered gasoline engines, whether smaller 6-cyl, or turbo four.
My point is, US based consumers THINK they want diesel because they see them in Europe and assume that's what Old World people want. All I'm saying, popularity of diesel there is artificially stimulated by public policy, taxation and other incentives. Anybody, who enjoyed American-market based ELLPS, would never even consider a diesel, except perhaps commercial vehicles, like taxi cabs and such. Moreover, the traditional advantages of diesels are going away. Bottom line - still clacking engine, less so than before, but more upfront cost, more maintenance, more prone to failures, sensitive to fuel quality, who knows if will last as long as older generations.
#15491 of 16982 Re: Pretty dead here [flightnurse]
Jan 11, 2013 (6:26 pm)
I thought all were based on the main company, e.g. GM, Toyota, Nissan...but it may not be that definitive
Porsche would have needed to make the largest increase in mpg, however, the fact that VW absorbed the sports-car company means there’s a good chance that Porsche’s fuel economy will now simply be part of the conglomerate’s overall average.
"Good chance" does not mean it is; not certain how it's determined
#15492 of 16982 Re: Diesels [dino001]
Jan 11, 2013 (6:29 pm)
Let's see aren't the new direct injection gas engines ( mostly) louder with a clattering on startup when cold, more sensitive to fuel quality( and carbonong up) and likely to be less long lived? I think until you drive a modern 4 cyl diesel, you may want to reserve judgement, at least the auto mags from Europe I.e Car magazine, are saying that the 4 cyl diesel 3 series is the one to have ( unless you afford the M of course). And yes they prefer the manual. I think there may have been something wrong with your family member's Audi, as that is not how I experience my diesel's power, and it is only a 40hp three cyl, but there is more than 1000 rpm of usually power, or perhaps it was just the corporate VW diesel was not really suited to a car the size and weight of the Audi, though I am sure the newer versions would be better ( they are no longer the top of the class for modern diesels, good but not the best).
In any case what is wrong with having the choice of more diesel cars here, no one is going to force you to buy one if you don't want one, why can't those of us that do want one have that choice?
#15493 of 16982 Re: Pretty dead here [flightnurse]
Jan 12, 2013 (8:55 am)
FN....just got home from the CES show in Vegas (~150,000 attendees). The cabbies are, in my estimation, the best gages for how the Vegas economy is doing. According to them, Vegas is coming along nicely with the recovery.
Anyone who's been there knows the range of vehicles they use as taxis are all over the map. My limo guy picked me up at the McCairn in a 735i. Town cars aren't the limo of choice these days, so it seems.
Asking one of the Prius taxi drivers if he'd consider a diesel, his answer was swift and emphatic....NO!
His reasoning was the hybrids and gasoline cars have the same longevity these days. Plus, the additional cost of buying diesel fuel offsets any additional MPG.
Segueing back to ELLPS, our 335i and S4 both get 20-21 MPG+ in the city, and nearly 30 MPG highway. These are performance cars capable of 0-60 sub 5 sec times that will cruise all day at 130 MPH + in quiet and comfort.
Manufacturers have tried to get diesels to be more appealing in the U.S. I know a small, but vocal segment like them. They won't be successful here, however.