Last post on May 09, 2013 at 9:32 AM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
BMW 3 Series, Infiniti G37, Acura TL, Lexus IS 350, Mercedes-Benz C-Class, Cadillac CTS, Volvo S60, Audi A4, Acura TSX, Car Comparisons, Sedan
#15336 of 16087 Re: Preferences vs. "Better" [ivan_99]
Dec 07, 2012 (7:40 am)
what would be 41.8K in today's dollars (ouch)...or 10K less than a BASE Cayman.
I seem to recall a new Honda S2000 was still under $36,000 when they ended production for 2010. In November 2001 (2002 MY), the S2000 was at least $15-25k+ less than all of its competition of the day - SLK, Boxster S (base Boxster was only 201hp), Z3 3.0i.
In addition, the S2000 had an options list that had exactly 1 item on it: pick your color. Everything else was standard - leather interior, power roof, etc.. It was a pretty spartan car compared to a Lexus, but it delivered on true sports car performance and engineering that only the Boxster S could match at a price of $55k, reasonably equipped. Which has now grown close to $75k, similarly equipped in 2013. Even the Base Boxster today - albeit a enormously improved car compared to the 2002 base Boxster - is $60k+ with "normal" options. A base Cayman for $52k?? Are you sure you don't want a steering wheel with that, sir?
P.S. Edmund's Host, if you are watching: I recall that when I bought my 2002 S2000 in November 2001, the MSRP was $32,880 and Edmunds TMV for the DC region was $36,000, $3,200 OVER MSRP. In California, it was higher still. Perhpas you can check Edmunds archives to verify? This was 2 full years after the car was first introduced. The high demand, limited supply was still resulting in dealer premiums. I only got a discount because of an early snowfall, 10 weeks after the 9/11 terrorist attacks. By the following spring, I had offers to sell the car for more than I paid for it - back to the dealer.
#15337 of 16087 Re: Preferences vs. "Better" [habitat1]
by kyfdx HOST
Dec 08, 2012 (6:48 am)
Here you go
Research to your heart's content...
#15338 of 16087 Re: Preferences vs. "Better" [kyfdx]
Dec 08, 2012 (7:07 am)
Thanks, although that doesn't show what Edmunds TMV was back in 2001. Which...is just fine. I need to reprioritize my time and focus on the future if I'm going to be able to write the check for a Cayman S come April.
#15339 of 16087 Re: Preferences vs. "Better" [habitat1]
by kyfdx HOST
Dec 08, 2012 (7:10 am)
I think Edmunds started the Prices Paid forums in 2003.. So, that would have been after the "over sticker" days of the S2000...
I've only been a Host since 2005, so not my fault...
#15340 of 16087 Re: Preferences vs. "Better" [habitat1]
Dec 08, 2012 (12:47 pm)
Do a search via Google or Bing for "Porsche ims failures". Numerous sites explain that the issue affects all M96/M97 engines. The issue is that the design doesn't lubricate the bearings adequately. The problem is exacerbated by automatics and typical American driving patterns since the engine is designed to run properly (and lubricate itself properly) with frequent 5K RPM shifts.
If you run it like you stole it and have a manual, it'll last about twice as long. If you put racing oil in it, you'll likely be fine as that's close to Euro standards. American oil is also far to low ppm zinc to give any level of fallback if the engine starts to wear out.
According to independent analysis, they are rated for 90% reliability at 90K miles. At a constant speed of 60mph. Yes, that means you can expect 10% of the bearings to fail by 90K miles. And if you run it faster than that, it'll wear out faster. If you run low ppm oil in it or don't change it regularly, it'll wear out faster. If you lug the engine or have an automatic, it'll also wear out faster.
The bearings are garbage and essentially need to be replaced like a timing belt at 60-70K miles to be safe.
At $2500 cost. (10 hours labor plus $900 in parts last I checked, plus tax.) Quite a steep "service item". To top it all off, they look at you like you are daft if you question this logic. I mean, the first 15K mile service cost a mere $500 (a couple of rounds of golf), so why are you complaining about a $2500 bearing change every 4 or 5 years?
You have to love Porsche dealers...
#15341 of 16087 Re: Preferences vs. "Better" [plekto]
Dec 08, 2012 (11:25 pm)
Or you install the LN Engineering upgrade once and you're good.
#15342 of 16087 Re: Preferences vs. "Better" [fedlawman]
Dec 09, 2012 (12:15 am)
Yeah, that's the $2500 "fix". The one nice thing is that you can get a lot of used Boxsters and Caymans with blown engines for literally nothing. Rebuild the engine and upgrade the IMS bearings and you're golden.
But buying new or CPO, yeah, get a 2009 or newer.
All of that said, though, I dearly miss the S2000. They really need to make a replacement version of it. Maybe a little more bling and a hard top as well. I'd still rather have a S2000 versus a Cayman.
#15343 of 16087 Re: Preferences vs. "Better" [habitat1]
by kirstie_h HOST
Dec 10, 2012 (9:31 am)
If you really, really wanted to know, you could use the "help" link at the top of this page, then choose the "contact us" option. There's a person, or several people, who provide historical values, but really only by request that way.
#15344 of 16087 Re: Preferences vs. "Better" [plekto]
Dec 10, 2012 (11:41 am)
I have to to give it to Acura when the NSX had the snap ring issue, they stepped up and would replace the transmission with no questioned asked. Of course this only effected some of the 91 ans 92 NSX's. So how Porsche done the same thing with the problem? This to me shows if the manufacture really cares about its reputation or not.
#15345 of 16087 Re: Preferences vs. "Better" [flightnurse]
Dec 10, 2012 (12:13 pm)
Porsche sort of acknowledged the problem by beefing up the IMS bearing in later (M97) models. I don't believe there are many (or any?) instances of failure with the M97.
Just one of several good reasons to just say no to water cooled Porsches IMHO...