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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

16087 messages,  Last post on May 09, 2013 at 9:32 AM

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Messages Page 1533 of 1610

#15315 of 16087 Re: Can Alfa-Romeo reinvent the sports sedan? [sweendogy] by habitat1

Dec 05, 2012 (6:05 am)

Replying to: sweendogy (Dec 04, 2012 6:27 pm)
The Gtr is in another class being a super car-
 
Don't want to get too far off track here, but have you ever driven a GT-R? I have and other than flooring the accelerator, there isn't much "super" about the experience for me. Not to be crude or sexist, but buying one would be like picking a wife or girlfriend based solely on maximum bust size. Without regard to the fact that you get an enormous waist and butt to go along with it. The GT-R is ugly outside, ugly inside and has a curb weight closer to a Porsche Cayenne than a Porsche Cayman. Yes, the performance numbers are good, but the two tons and AWD completely eliminate sense of visceral, nimble handling on public roads. "Super car" to me is a term to reserve for a GT-3 or 458.
 
I hope not to pay full MSRP on the Cayman S, but, as with real estate, it's better to get only a fair deal on a great car than a great deal on only a fair car.

#15316 of 16087 Re: Can Alfa-Romeo reinvent the sports sedan? [habitat1] by sweendogy

Dec 05, 2012 (11:05 am)

Replying to: habitat1 (Dec 05, 2012 6:05 am)
I have not had the luxury to drive the worlds best Nissan. But in my eyes and the journalist it is- as this recent article will suggest
 
http://my.chicagotribune.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-68906135/
 
As they say in big business - paying retail is for skers

#15317 of 16087 Re: Can Alfa-Romeo reinvent the sports sedan? [sweendogy] by habitat1

Dec 05, 2012 (12:48 pm)

Replying to: sweendogy (Dec 05, 2012 11:05 am)
As they say in big business - paying retail is for skers
 
Well if you were lucky enough to be one of the few hundred buyers to pick up a brand new Ferrari 430 or 458 at the MSRP, you could have driven it for a year, sold it and bought a GT-R with the profit. Of course, that would get you quickly knocked off Ferrari's "A" list for future purchases. Me, that's not a list I'll soon - or ever - be on.
 
I hope this makes you almost as happy as me - I just put a deposit on a 2013/4 Cayman S at a discount off MSRP, and am #1 on their list for a customer ordered car. Porsche won't take the order for another few weeks and I won't get the car before April, but I think my shopping is over.
 
  
Regarding the GTR, if you must have 0-60 in under 3 seconds for $100k, my choice would be to buy a 2-3 year old pre-owned 911 Turbo S. The only thing that will get you to 60 quicker is a Bugatti. The Porsche is a little more refined for my tastes. And doesn't look like it was created by an uncooperative committee of Nissan designers that used the Plymouth Barracuda for inspiration. Plus, Porsche still believes in offering manual transmissions - an unfortunate rarity in the world of supercars.
 
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/1206_nissan_gt_r_black_edition_vs_por- - - - sche_911_turbo_s_comparison/viewall.html

#15318 of 16087 Re: Can Alfa-Romeo reinvent the sports sedan? [habitat1] by sweendogy

Dec 05, 2012 (12:58 pm)

Replying to: habitat1 (Dec 05, 2012 12:48 pm)
Bit all over the place- the 911 Turbo prob a better car- but again it's 70k more. That's a huge chunk of change- and in terms of % of MsRP difference you could by a boxter as a daily driver if you wanted.
 
Congrats on the order and nice work paying less then sticker.

#15319 of 16087 Re: Can Alfa-Romeo reinvent the sports sedan? [habitat1] by flightnurse

Dec 05, 2012 (1:04 pm)

Replying to: habitat1 (Dec 05, 2012 6:05 am)
I have and other than flooring the accelerator, there isn't much "super"
 
And what track did you drive this GT-R?
 
How about this...
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUM4fM-85ZM
 
BTW, this video shows just how fast the GT-R is around a race track since it broke the record on this lap..
 
Not bad for porky car..
 
To fair, the GT-R is an amazing car for the speed and handling the the car can do for its weight.

#15320 of 16087 Re: Can Alfa-Romeo reinvent the sports sedan? [sweendogy] by habitat1

Dec 05, 2012 (1:19 pm)

Replying to: sweendogy (Dec 05, 2012 12:58 pm)
Note that I said 2-3 year old pre-owned 911 Turbo S. The Turbo's depreciate at a faster rate than the GT-3 - as further evidence of what the serious enthusiasts really enjoy driving. The independent Porsche service place I go to has a legendary master mechanic and former race team member who has even disconnected the front wheel drive on a number of 993 and 996 Turbo's because of the enthusiast preference for RWD.

#15321 of 16087 Re: Can Alfa-Romeo reinvent the sports sedan? [flightnurse] by habitat1

Dec 05, 2012 (1:46 pm)

Replying to: flightnurse (Dec 05, 2012 1:04 pm)
And what track did you drive this GT-R?
 
No track, I-270 and the DC Beltway during some non-rush hour times. And it was last year with a 2011 model.
 
Again, great numbers on paper and there is no disputing the 500+ hp and AWD ability to get the 2-ton car around a track quickly. But until you drive one, it's hard for me to explain the unsatisfactory experience I had. This is just a sledgehammer of a car, nothing scalpel like about it, when you are driving it anywhere but the Nurburgring track. Nissan's answer to the Viper, not a Ferrari or Porsche. And, by the way, the RWD 911GT2 took back the title from the GT-R with a lap time of 7:18. Again, not that this matters that much to me. I want a sports car that is attractive, light, enjoyable to drive at 30 mph as much as 100+ and still let's me row my own gears, no matter how bad or slow I am. The GT-R is a hell of a deal for the right buyer, just not me.

#15322 of 16087 Re: Can Alfa-Romeo reinvent the sports sedan? [habitat1] by sweendogy

Dec 05, 2012 (3:36 pm)

Replying to: habitat1 (Dec 05, 2012 1:19 pm)
Note you said 2-3 yr old Porsche - and posted a new vs new comparo. I have a Jr mechanic, he rotated my tires and chipped a rim.

#15323 of 16087 Re: Can Alfa-Romeo reinvent the sports sedan? [habitat1] by flightnurse

Dec 05, 2012 (9:25 pm)

Replying to: habitat1 (Dec 05, 2012 1:46 pm)
Habait I have driven two GT-R's on races tracks at speed, A 2010 (stock) at Willow Springs (the big track) and 2012 (slight modified) at Firebird Raceway.After a lap or two you f forget how much the car really weights when you are throwing the car into turns at speed. The builds speed VERY quickly and can stop just as quick.
 
We all have our likes and dislikes, you like the S2000 over a NSX, you like the Cayman and I like the Boxster.
 
Now if Nissan can shave off 750 pounds from the GT-R I highly doubt you will fine a better car for the money...

#15324 of 16087 Preferences vs. "Better" by habitat1

Dec 06, 2012 (2:37 am)

Replying to: flightnurse (Dec 05, 2012 9:25 pm)
Now if Nissan can shave off 750 pounds from the GT-R I highly doubt you will fine a better car for the money...
 
That 750 lb "shave" may involve a few hours with my chain saw and end up with something that looks more like a Cayman than a GT-R. No I suspect Nissan will continue to produce a nearly two ton GT-R and be unapologetic for its girth. As they have every right to be.
 
My preference for a lighter weight, more refined, manual transmission coupe like the new Cayman S over the GT-R is just that, a preference. Most of my time in the driver's seat will be in sub-sonic speeds where nimble handling - and interior design - will be noticed, but the raw power of 545hp will not. Would I like more power? Who among us wouldn't? But if it's a trade off between 0-60 in 4.5 seconds and 2.9 seconds vs. giving up the enjoyment of shifting my own gears, a marginally ugly interior (IMO) and Barracuda inspired exterior, and a car that is "clunky" around town (Edmund's quote), I'll take 4.5. But that does not mean that I don't respect your choice to go with the GT-R based upon your preferences.
 
It may be valid to call something "better" based upon a single attribute. But my choice of cars - and I suspect yours - involves several attributes, some of which are in conflict with each other and change over time. In 2005 I bought a 911S Cab at $10k more than the coupe. The soft top was a detriment to absolute track performance, but a joy for my daughters in the mini-back seats. Now I'm about to pay $3,000 more for a Cayman coupe than a Boxster. Go figure.
 
Bringing this back to ELLPS, the trade-off preferences can be even more subtle. Nissan is often dinged on the lack of refinement relative to the G37 vs. the BMW 335i or even Acura TL-AWD. Other's might take the raw power and performance of a Subaru WRX and ask why anyone would consider a more expensive ELLPS. As you said, it all comes down to likes and dislikes and weighing preferences, not just a single attribute.

Messages Page 1533 of 1610

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