Last post on May 09, 2013 at 9:32 AM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
BMW 3 Series, Infiniti G37, Acura TL, Lexus IS 350, Mercedes-Benz C-Class, Cadillac CTS, Volvo S60, Audi A4, Acura TSX, Car Comparisons, Sedan
#15181 of 16087 Re: Trickle UP?!? [flightnurse]
Nov 01, 2012 (11:11 am)
not once in all of the years did I read any auto enthusiast magazine compare the S2000 and NSX together
But I did that comparison. With my own butt in the drivers seat and had my own checkbook out.. 1996 NSX 30k miles vs. new 2002 S2000. They were a hell of a lot closer than you might be fooled into thinking from simply reading Road and Track and not doing the comparison yourself.
Both the NSX and S2000 were hand built, side by side at the same Japanese factory. Both had fit and finish were FAR superior to anything made by Honda or Acura in the US. Both were engineered by the same team of Honda's Formula One racing team engineers. The NSX produced 90 hp/liter without turbos. Great for it's time in 1990. They improved it to 91 hp / liter a little later. The S2000 produced 120 hp / liter in 2000. You need a $140k 911 GT3 RS to approach that output today, 12 years later. The BMW M3, 104 hp /liter. Halfway between the NSX and S2000.
The bottom line is that the 1996 NSX I almost bought had a price tag of $85,000 new, $15,000 more than the 1996 911 C2. But by 2002, even a new NSX was no where near the same performance league as a Ferrari 360 or (cheaper) 911S. Yet, at under $35k, for the entire 10 year run of the S2000, nothing within $10-20k of its price could match its engineering, build quality or overall performance. I'm not saying that the NSX wasn't a very good car during its early years. But way before the end of its run, it had become a underpowered, overpriced, stale car. And sold a few dozen the last couple of years before Acura finally and mercifully pulled the plug. The S2000 never suffered that level of competitive deterioration or indignation. It came in a winner, went out a winner vis a vis its competition.
Some people - perhaps you - don' want to give the S2000 credit because it didn't cost $50k+ or carry the same exclusiveness/prestige. I look at it differently. Acura had a marginally competitive car in the $85k price range. It's biggest advantage when it was introduced was that it didn't break. Porsche fixed their reliability issues. Acura sat on its hands relative to keeping the NSX performance competitive. Honda had a sub $35k car that was the class leader, by a big margin, for a decade straight. That gets my vote. You can place yours on the NSX.
#15182 of 16087 Re: Trickle UP?!? [habitat1]
Nov 01, 2012 (11:29 am)
was 2002 the first year? My BIL got one when they first came out (He had the first one in central NY, and I imagine one of the earliest ones int eh country) and he still has it. Not sure of the miles, but I doubt he broke 35K on it. Babied toy, spends winters in the garage, probably has not seen rain in years. I wish my life was that good!
my other BIL and I are both waiting for him to get stupid and sell it so we can fight over it (and I know now he can't afford it!). He sometimes gets antsy to buy a Porsche (older Turbo 9xx of some vintage) or a cobra kit car. But so far, he has not pulled the trigger, and if he does, the S2000 has to go.
I drove it when new. Fun car.
#15183 of 16087 Re: Trickle UP?!? [habitat1]
Nov 01, 2012 (2:37 pm)
Not to dis your reminiscing of the days-gone-by vis-a-vis the S2000, because I actually considered one until the kids started coming, but didn't the Mazda RX8 win most/all comparisons?
RX8 was Japanese built as well. I didn't delve into the finer details regarding their build quality.
The RX8 had other problems regarding ownership (muscle car mileage with econo-car torque)
I just didn't see the S2000 as "that" fantastic; maybe I should have tracked one for the day
#15184 of 16087 Re: Trickle UP?!? [stickguy]
Nov 01, 2012 (6:28 pm)
Stickguy - S2000 came out in late 1999 as a MY 2000. The years to own were 2002 and 2003, IMO. For 2002 they added glass (vs. plastic) rear window, stronger clutch / transmission, and a few other upgrades. But in 2004 they replaced the 9,000 RPM 2.0 liter engine with a 8,000 rpm redline 2.2 liter engine. Same horsepower, slightly more low end torque, but it lost a little of the high rpm edge that made it a fan favorite. Schumacher once commented that it's the closest thing under $100,000 to a Ferrari in spirit.
Ivan - The RX8 never did anything for me. A couple of rungs down the ladder in performance, funky 4 door with mini back seat. It certainly didn't have any success on the track like the S2000 enjoyed. About the only thing it had going for it was the novelty of a high RPM rotary engine. But given the lower performance and horrific gas mileage, it didn't get beyond the novelty stage.
#15185 of 16087 Re: Trickle UP?!? [habitat1]
Nov 01, 2012 (7:04 pm)
2004 tL 6 speed - so in car years you do drive a 2007 accord 6pd - now I understand- so maybe you are an accord target. . Most of us here also understand that Acura has not done its part to own 2 spots on the car list to the right(sorry billy), some of us have voiced this many times over- but hosts seem to be clinging to the idea that the tL and tsx should still be listed -is the ilx next? in actuality caddy a domestic car maker has better offerings.
Love the talk of left foot action,just be careful lots of dsg and cvt lovers here- they will rant all day long about how much Better they are- texting also better with this option. The $75k talk, the tesla talk-great stuff but prob wrong venue- until the new 2015 3 comes out then that price could be a true comparison. Hearing leather will be standard.
#15186 of 16087 Re: Trickle UP?!? [sweendogy]
Nov 02, 2012 (6:07 am)
2004 tL 6 speed - so in car years you do drive a 2007 accord 6pd.
Not quite. The 2004 TL 6-speed also came with Brembo brakes, a noticeably firmer sport suspension and summer performance tires compared to the automatic (since switched to high performance all season). So even though the Accord and some other FWD cars now have comparable horsepower, I would still put my 2004 TL as one of the best handling and braking FWD mid size sedans I've driven. Unfortunately, with the latest generation, the FWD TL has morphed into more of an Accord Plus, and the AWD one is nearly a quarter ton heavier and does not have a separate sport suspension set up even on the 6-speed manual version.
I do agree a bit with your underlying point, though. Acura has not really acted like they want to be a distinct luxury/sport division from the mothership Honda. Certainly not the way Lexus has gone well above Toyota in product design and pricing with the LS and GS models. Hell, even Hyundai has a V8 RWD sedan that is priced higher then the droopy flagship RL, and they DIDN'T need a luxury division label to give them the balls to try. Infiniti has its own set of problems, but at least when they started with the Q45, they had the ambition of going above Nissan in a relatively big way.
The good news for Acura is that I think Honda is a stronger starting point then Toyota and way above Nissan. But I'd like to see them show more commitment to designing and building cars that seriously compete with Audi's A6 and above and BMW's 5 series and above in the sport luxury segment. The ILX? Really? We've already had the Integra, RSX, TSX and the XXX. Do we really need another model that begs the question "where does this fit in between the Accord, Civic and TL?" They appear to be stuck in perennial underachievement.
Note to Acura: Please, Acura, give me something with RWD and a 50/50 weight balance to seriously consider over a 535i or 550i 6-speed and S6. Go ahead and borrow some Hyundai balls to price it at $50-60k+ If you do it right, I'll buy one, I promise.
#15187 of 16087 Re: Trickle UP?!? [habitat1]
Nov 02, 2012 (6:38 am)
Excellent post! Very nicely put.
#15188 of 16087 Re: Trickle UP?!? [habitat1]
Nov 02, 2012 (12:43 pm)
Glad you came back the way you did in your response, only question is, who buy these car anymore in the mass markets- East Coast?
"Hell, even Hyundai has a V8 RWD sedan"
I for one might trade up next summer for a 550 XI (operative word-might).
#15189 of 16087 Re: Trickle UP?!? [habitat1]
Nov 02, 2012 (5:30 pm)
Great rebut, billy loved it, but Quite similar. I might have been off a year with accord- the 08 newer body coupe came with 268hp 6- a very similar if not the same gearbox- throw on a pair of after market brembos and tire rack to performance tires -btw you get 18s on the accord- and you have a TL coupe- while the tL might be a great fwd turner it's still an accord in soul- a lot of soul. Which is not a bad thing- so again maybe you should save a buck or 30k and reconsider the accord.
#15190 of 16087 Re: Trickle UP?!? [sweendogy]
Nov 03, 2012 (6:05 am)
Tuner Accord coupe instead of a Boxster S? I don't think that's for me. I "tune" $50 million real estate projects for my day job, serve on a couple of boards where I "tune" companies for shareholders, and even "tuned" a falling down 1930's house (with a bulldozer) into a new FLW prairie style house for my wife and kids. But I've still got my $125 gas leaf blower pulled apart trying to figure out why it won't start. I wouldn't have the slightest idea of how you might tune FWD into RWD and a 60/40 weight balance into a 50/50. I don't think you'd want to ride in a car I've tried re-fitting with Brembo brakes.
On the other hand, if I was going to take up a second career in mechanical engineering, I might start by figuring out how to replace a BMW steptronic with a 6-speed manual so Billy can have a manual transmssion 550ix's in his garage in a couple of years.
Not me....but I do like your creative thinking.