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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

16087 messages,  Last post on May 09, 2013 at 9:32 AM

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What is this discussion about? BMW 3 Series, Infiniti G37, Acura TL, Lexus IS 350, Mercedes-Benz C-Class, Cadillac CTS, Volvo S60, Audi A4, Acura TSX, Car Comparisons, Sedan

Messages Page 1519 of 1610

#15176 of 16087 Re: Trickle UP?!? [sweendogy] by habitat1

Nov 01, 2012 (7:45 am)

Replying to: sweendogy (Oct 31, 2012 7:28 pm)
I'm probably not Honda's target market for a FWD Accord now, but it wasn't that long ago that I might have been. After all, I still drive a 2004 FWD TL 6-speed as my everyday car. My "trickle up" comments were more to question why Acura hasn't set itself more apart from Honda. Lexus has V8's and RWD, Infiniti is pretty far removed from the Nissan line-up. But Acura, much as I like the parent company, hasn't really done much that isn't more than a moderate uptick from Honda - other than putting SH-AWD in this and that.
 
As for the new NSX, as my baseball manager/coach tells me, I'm not getting any younger. I'm having a tough time waiting for the new Cayman to be unveiled at the LA auto show in 4 weeks. By the time Seinfeld and all of the other celebrities get the first batch of NSX's, I may be ready for one of those motorized chairs they advertise on late night TV. Besides, haven't seen the details, but I have this stinking feeling that Acura is only going to offer some kind of computer aided automatic transmission on the NSX. That - and about $300,000 - are what keeps me from considering the new Ferraris. As long as I'm not in a wheelchair, I want to use my left foot to depress a real clutch pedal. Kind of hard to do that on a Tesla, given that it's only one gear. But everything else, I'll shift my own thank you.

#15177 of 16087 Re: Trickle UP?!? [habitat1] by flightnurse

Nov 01, 2012 (8:46 am)

Replying to: habitat1 (Nov 01, 2012 6:23 am)
The S2000 and NSX are not in the same league. While the S2000 handles well for the price of admission, not once in all of the years did I read any auto enthusiast magazine compare the S2000 and NSX together. As you pointed out the S2000 was fighting with the likes of Z3/Z4, Boxster, Z350/370 crowd. While the NSX was battling with Ferrari, Lambo's and such. Since the NSX was Honda's flagship sports car, I'm not too sure that the S2000 could be Honda's best built car. Now for you maybe, but that statement would be hard pressed to hold itself in a larger automotive community.

#15178 of 16087 Re: Trickle UP?!? [habitat1] by flightnurse

Nov 01, 2012 (8:50 am)

Replying to: habitat1 (Nov 01, 2012 7:45 am)
I'm not getting any younger. I'm having a tough time waiting for the new Cayman to be unveiled at the LA auto show in 4 weeks.
 
If my travel plans stay how they are, I should be in LA for the auto show and plan on being there on Dec 1st.
 
The next generation NSX doesn't do anything for me, I like the last generation, simple and straight forward...

#15179 of 16087 Re: Trickle UP?!? [habitat1] by plekto

Nov 01, 2012 (9:25 am)

Replying to: habitat1 (Nov 01, 2012 6:23 am)
I like the "because I can" response, but then again, why not?? Same general price and with the Model S Performance Edition, it scoots 0 to 60 in 3.9 seconds. Plus, I like the green concept, even if I don't think human farting was responsible for Manhatten being under a mile of ice 16,000 years ago. But alas, after a test drive two weeks ago, I've just about crossed the Tesla off my list.
 
The problem is that the car is a half-baked attempt at an electric vehicle. They took a ready-made car, the Lotus Elise (which is a horrendously expensive platform to use) and then added a thousand pounds of weight to it in batteries.
 
The Leaf, on the other hand, is a purpose-built EV and while it needs refinement and work, is actually pretty good for a first serious attempt at a EV by a major auto maker. Yes, I know other cars existed in the past, but this one you can actually *buy* and not lease, and it's not designed with government regulations and making some lawyers happy. It's designed to actually be a proper vehicle in the marketplace.
 
They did make the S2000 until 2009, so you might actually get a very lightly used S2000.
 
As for new, the Scion FR-S coupe is actually quite compelling. It's inexpensive, has a good engine and drivetrain layout, and just begs for a supercharger to be added. (my local dealer had brochures for local TRD suppliers/shops in the showroom and was saying that it would be 6 months, tops, before they were able to do it in-house).
 
Independent shops are reporting yields in the 280-320HP range, which would turn it into a European car crusher, much like the NSX was.
 
Yes, it's not Honda. But it's not a bad second choice if you need fas, fun, and new. (though I'd still take a S2000 in a heartbeat)

#15180 of 16087 Re: Trickle UP?!? [plekto] by stickguy

Nov 01, 2012 (9:34 am)

Replying to: plekto (Nov 01, 2012 9:25 am)
It sounds like the factory will probably take care of the turbo for you within a year or so.
 
one of this months car magazines had a piece on the turbo version of that engine, and certainly speculated that this car would get it (along with the WRX, etc.).
 
I think it already has a nice balance of power, cost, complexity (or lack of!) as it is, and is more than fast enough. But, I am sure that they will make a boatload of money selling a turbo model for what, another 3K or so?

#15181 of 16087 Re: Trickle UP?!? [flightnurse] by habitat1

Nov 01, 2012 (11:11 am)

Replying to: flightnurse (Nov 01, 2012 8:46 am)
not once in all of the years did I read any auto enthusiast magazine compare the S2000 and NSX together
 
But I did that comparison. With my own butt in the drivers seat and had my own checkbook out.. 1996 NSX 30k miles vs. new 2002 S2000. They were a hell of a lot closer than you might be fooled into thinking from simply reading Road and Track and not doing the comparison yourself.
 
Both the NSX and S2000 were hand built, side by side at the same Japanese factory. Both had fit and finish were FAR superior to anything made by Honda or Acura in the US. Both were engineered by the same team of Honda's Formula One racing team engineers. The NSX produced 90 hp/liter without turbos. Great for it's time in 1990. They improved it to 91 hp / liter a little later. The S2000 produced 120 hp / liter in 2000. You need a $140k 911 GT3 RS to approach that output today, 12 years later. The BMW M3, 104 hp /liter. Halfway between the NSX and S2000.
 
The bottom line is that the 1996 NSX I almost bought had a price tag of $85,000 new, $15,000 more than the 1996 911 C2. But by 2002, even a new NSX was no where near the same performance league as a Ferrari 360 or (cheaper) 911S. Yet, at under $35k, for the entire 10 year run of the S2000, nothing within $10-20k of its price could match its engineering, build quality or overall performance. I'm not saying that the NSX wasn't a very good car during its early years. But way before the end of its run, it had become a underpowered, overpriced, stale car. And sold a few dozen the last couple of years before Acura finally and mercifully pulled the plug. The S2000 never suffered that level of competitive deterioration or indignation. It came in a winner, went out a winner vis a vis its competition.
 
Some people - perhaps you - don' want to give the S2000 credit because it didn't cost $50k+ or carry the same exclusiveness/prestige. I look at it differently. Acura had a marginally competitive car in the $85k price range. It's biggest advantage when it was introduced was that it didn't break. Porsche fixed their reliability issues. Acura sat on its hands relative to keeping the NSX performance competitive. Honda had a sub $35k car that was the class leader, by a big margin, for a decade straight. That gets my vote. You can place yours on the NSX.

#15182 of 16087 Re: Trickle UP?!? [habitat1] by stickguy

Nov 01, 2012 (11:29 am)

Replying to: habitat1 (Nov 01, 2012 11:11 am)
was 2002 the first year? My BIL got one when they first came out (He had the first one in central NY, and I imagine one of the earliest ones int eh country) and he still has it. Not sure of the miles, but I doubt he broke 35K on it. Babied toy, spends winters in the garage, probably has not seen rain in years. I wish my life was that good!
 
my other BIL and I are both waiting for him to get stupid and sell it so we can fight over it (and I know now he can't afford it!). He sometimes gets antsy to buy a Porsche (older Turbo 9xx of some vintage) or a cobra kit car. But so far, he has not pulled the trigger, and if he does, the S2000 has to go.
 
I drove it when new. Fun car.

#15183 of 16087 Re: Trickle UP?!? [habitat1] by ivan_99

Nov 01, 2012 (2:37 pm)

Replying to: habitat1 (Nov 01, 2012 11:11 am)
Not to dis your reminiscing of the days-gone-by vis-a-vis the S2000, because I actually considered one until the kids started coming, but didn't the Mazda RX8 win most/all comparisons?
 
RX8 was Japanese built as well. I didn't delve into the finer details regarding their build quality.
 
The RX8 had other problems regarding ownership (muscle car mileage with econo-car torque)
 
I just didn't see the S2000 as "that" fantastic; maybe I should have tracked one for the day

#15184 of 16087 Re: Trickle UP?!? [stickguy] by habitat1

Nov 01, 2012 (6:28 pm)

Replying to: stickguy (Nov 01, 2012 11:29 am)
Stickguy - S2000 came out in late 1999 as a MY 2000. The years to own were 2002 and 2003, IMO. For 2002 they added glass (vs. plastic) rear window, stronger clutch / transmission, and a few other upgrades. But in 2004 they replaced the 9,000 RPM 2.0 liter engine with a 8,000 rpm redline 2.2 liter engine. Same horsepower, slightly more low end torque, but it lost a little of the high rpm edge that made it a fan favorite. Schumacher once commented that it's the closest thing under $100,000 to a Ferrari in spirit.
 
Ivan - The RX8 never did anything for me. A couple of rungs down the ladder in performance, funky 4 door with mini back seat. It certainly didn't have any success on the track like the S2000 enjoyed. About the only thing it had going for it was the novelty of a high RPM rotary engine. But given the lower performance and horrific gas mileage, it didn't get beyond the novelty stage.

#15185 of 16087 Re: Trickle UP?!? [habitat1] by sweendogy

Nov 01, 2012 (7:04 pm)

Replying to: habitat1 (Nov 01, 2012 7:45 am)
2004 tL 6 speed - so in car years you do drive a 2007 accord 6pd - now I understand- so maybe you are an accord target. . Most of us here also understand that Acura has not done its part to own 2 spots on the car list to the right(sorry billy), some of us have voiced this many times over- but hosts seem to be clinging to the idea that the tL and tsx should still be listed -is the ilx next? in actuality caddy a domestic car maker has better offerings.
 
Love the talk of left foot action,just be careful lots of dsg and cvt lovers here- they will rant all day long about how much Better they are- texting also better with this option. The $75k talk, the tesla talk-great stuff but prob wrong venue- until the new 2015 3 comes out then that price could be a true comparison. Hearing leather will be standard.

Messages Page 1519 of 1610

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