Ask the Car People.SM


Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

16252 messages,  Last post on Jun 19, 2013 at 4:39 PM

You are in the Sedans Forum.

What is this discussion about? BMW 3 Series, Infiniti G37, Acura TL, Lexus IS 350, Mercedes-Benz C-Class, Cadillac CTS, Volvo S60, Audi A4, Acura TSX, Car Comparisons, Sedan

Messages Page 1512 of 1626

#15108 of 16252 Re: 5000 [ivan_99] by habitat1

Oct 20, 2012 (5:34 am)

Replying to: ivan_99 (Oct 19, 2012 9:06 pm)
3153 lbs isn't that bad.
 
It is when it is attached to a their below entry level 211 hp engine. The fair comparisons are:
 
Cayman S (320 hp) 2,976 lbs vs. TTS Coupe (265 hp) 3,219 lbs = +243 lbs; -55 hp
Boxster S (315 hp) 2,910 lbs vs. TTS Roadster (265 hp) 3,394 lbs = +484 lbs; -50 hp
911S Coupe (400hp) 3,075 lbs vs. TT RS Coupe (360 hp) 3,306 lbs = +231 lbs; -40 hp
 
Porsche is redesigning the Cayman S along the lines of the new Boxster, so its weight is anticipated to drop another 80-100 lbs for 2013.
 
Again, my point isn't that Audi doesn't make some great cars. They absolutely do. I particularly like the S5 and A7/S7. But the added weight (and AWD) makes Audi's so-called sports cars and sport sedans feel much less nimble than I would prefer. They get decent straight line performance, but, as Clint Eastwood might say, they have "trouble with the curves". At least in imparting the same kind of nimble feel and driving pleasure.
 
Considering that my 1995 5 passenger Nissan Maxima SE tipped the scales at 3,001 lbs, I'd really like to see similar sized offerings by Audi and BMW try to stay in the 3,500 lb range. That gives them an extra 500 lbs for more safety equipment, stronger frame and chassis (although my Maxima was as solid at 150k miles as it was new), and techno do-dads. But 4,000 lbs for a mid size sedan is just too much, IMO. Hell, Porsche has now got their Cayenne down to under 4,400 lbs; surely they can lend a weight reduction engineer to Audi for a few weeks.

#15109 of 16252 Re: 5000 [habitat1] by plekto

Oct 20, 2012 (9:05 am)

Replying to: habitat1 (Oct 20, 2012 5:34 am)
It gets even worse if you look at their torque differences and the RPM curves. But then again, Porsche has built the best small cars for decades. You kind of expect them to make great things.

#15110 of 16252 Re: 5000 [habitat1] by dino001

Oct 20, 2012 (5:50 pm)

Replying to: habitat1 (Oct 20, 2012 5:34 am)
Prices:
 
TTS Coupe: $48K-53K
Cayman S: $62K-80K
911 Carrera S: $100K
 
Apples and oranges. Complaining about extra 200-300 pounds on car that is 20K+ cheaper is simply not fair. For extra 20-50 grand anybody can throw in extra engineering and lightweight materials and horsepower. And even mighty Porsche couldn't lightend its Carrera 4 (AWD) version - 3150 to 3197 lb, making it below 200 lb differential against Audi at 50 grand more.
 
Audi should be compared to similarly priced vehicles to comparison make sense. Weight is money, for hundred grand I sure would expect a sports coupe to be 300 lbs. lighter. Just like if one pays 100 grand for a luxury sedan, they should expect stuff, they would not find in a 30 thousand family "fully loaded" sedan.

#15111 of 16252 Re: 5000 [habitat1] by andres3

Oct 21, 2012 (12:44 am)

Replying to: habitat1 (Oct 20, 2012 5:34 am)
I feel compelled to point out, that, yes, but the TTRS has smoked the Cayman R (the fair comparison) around any track they've both been measured on, despite any weight disadvantages, or so-called "trouble with the curves."
 
On the other hand, I agree that ALL car manufacturers need to put their vehicles on a diet; it has gotten out of hand. At least BMW, AUDI, and Porsche try and make an effort, can't say the same for everyone.
 
On the plus side, my A3 is much quieter than a Mazda 3 regarding road noise (sound dampening) and the Mazda feels tinny and thin in comparison (particularly the sheet metal seemed dent prone). I would take the Audi in a crash or accident any day, so their are some advantages to the heft, but I would like to see cars get lighter in general.

#15112 of 16252 Re: 5000 [andres3] by habitat1

Oct 21, 2012 (6:02 am)

Replying to: andres3 (Oct 21, 2012 12:44 am)
I feel compelled to point out, that, yes, but the TTRS has smoked the Cayman R (the fair comparison) around any track they've both been measured on, despite any weight disadvantages, or so-called "trouble with the curves."
 
I feel compelled to point out that you're wrong: Nordschleife Lap Times
 
As you can see scrolling down, the Audi TT RS Coupe is 8:09 and the (old) Cayman R was 8:06. But even more impressive is the new 2013 Boxster S, which has come in at 7:58. With the weight reduction and chassis improvements, I expect the new Cayman being somewhere between that time and the 7:37 posted by the new Carrera S. My bet would be 7:48 for the Cayman S.
 
But I don't need to go to Germany with a racing helmet to form my personal opinion. Even with moderately vigorous test drives, I have felt the weight and bulk of Audi's. For a big luxury sedan like the A8, not a problem. For an A6, a little more so, for the S5, it didn't feel as nimble as a 335is or M3. The TT S (I haven't driven the RS), was not as rewarding to drive as my old S2000, let alone a Boxster S or Cayman. It has a great looking interior and probably is the most comfortable with cruise control on at 75 mph on the highway, but that's not the top of my priority list for a sports car. BTW, I am even more critical of the BMW Z4. The make a great diesel SUV, as my garage can attest. But not a very compelling so-called sports car.
 
I understand Audi has elected to go with AWD as their preferred performance drivetrain. It certainly beats FWD to death. But it adds weight and takes away the nimbleness of RWD when you get into the sport sedan, coupe and sports car categories, IMO. I'd make the same claim relative to Porsche. Give me a GT3 over a 911 Turbo any day. Or if you are feeling really generous, a GT2.
 
P.S. Price vs. Weight. Yes, I agree with a previous post that Porsche has a few more engineering dollars to spend to squeeze out more weight. The point I am making is that right now, Audi doesn't seem to think that weight is a problem, period. That's an attitude issue, not a cost one.

#15113 of 16252 Re: 5000 [dino001] by flightnurse

Oct 21, 2012 (11:05 pm)

Replying to: dino001 (Oct 20, 2012 5:50 pm)
Apples and oranges. Complaining about extra 200-300 pounds
 
When creature comforts started taking over cars, they will get heavier. back up camera's, Nav system, Infiniti adjustment power seats, quieter highway cruising.) Also look at the safety equipment that cars have to have, air bags, safety glass etc..
 
Of course car companies can build the extra light weight sport car with no thrills Honda S2000, Cayman R (2855lbs) or how about the Honda/Acrua NSX (2975lbs) Porsche knew what lightweight was in 73-74 when they built the 911 RS 2175 lbs (this was the SL (superlight) weight)...
 
The question do car companies want to build them? BMW had the The BMW M3 CSL (Coupé Sport Leichtbau) weight 3050lbs (light for BMWs) I'm sure BMW could have shaved off an extra 200lbs from the car, but elected not to. Wouldn't be nice to be able to buy a BMW 3M coupe, at 2800 lbs, making 330hp, or better yet, just a 3 series sedan or coupe CSL...

#15114 of 16252 Re: 5000 [flightnurse] by habitat1

Oct 22, 2012 (5:21 am)

Replying to: flightnurse (Oct 21, 2012 11:05 pm)
When I read your reference to the 911 RS, I realized that I'm probably guilty of taking this discussion too far for the ELLPS forum.
 
I had originally responded to another post suggesting that Audi is in the engineering leadership position. I agreed that, while they make some very nice cars, they could use a dose of attitude adjustment and make weight loss a higher priority. Across the board. That doesn't mean I think they should shoot to compete with 1970's vintage sports cars. But almost every vehicle they have now competes for the title of "heaviest in the segment". The Q7 was by several hundred pounds the heaviest SUV we considered - even though it has a smaller interior than the MDX. That excessive weight made it feel slow and ponderous handling compared to the X5d, Cayenne and even their sister Toaureg (which is no lightweight either). Lost sale relative to us, given that it is otherwise a fine vehicle.
 
We can take up on another sports car board whether Audi has been too pig-headish on maintaining AWD as their only drivetrain on their TTS, S4/S5 and other performance models. But you will never get a TT anything to feel as tight, sharp and visceral as my old S2000 with the extra weight of a water buffalo in the passenger seat. Maybe a juvenile buffalo, but a buffalo all the same.

#15115 of 16252 Re: 5000 [flightnurse] by victor23

Oct 22, 2012 (7:21 am)

Replying to: flightnurse (Oct 21, 2012 11:05 pm)
Blame not car companies. Blame our litigious culture resulting in the heavy (literally) safety mandates (often overkill or just nonsensical). Blame also a dumb consumer car culture where cupholders and stereo take precedence over driving dynamics even in the so-called "enthusiast" segment.

#15116 of 16252 Re: 5000 [victor23] by m6user

Oct 22, 2012 (8:48 am)

Replying to: victor23 (Oct 22, 2012 7:21 am)
The "creature comforts" of nav, power windows/locks, power seat adjusters, soundproofing add very little weight in relation to the manual systems they replaced. Especially with todays mini electronics and motors. Soundproofing is not the heavy stuff of bygone years either. The culprit in weight gain is safety systems in response to federal regulation and insurance industry standards AND the overall size of the vehicle. While you can add high strength steel in the framing and aluminum hoods, etc which can save a few pounds, physics will not be denied and the weight goes up somewhat relative to the increase in the size of vehicles.
 
Just look at tires. My first car had 13" and even 16"s were large throughout the 90s. Now the the standard is about 17" with 18"s pretty common as well. Can't tell me that these larger wheels and tires don't add significantly to the weight.

#15117 of 16252 Re: 5000 [m6user] by habitat1

Oct 22, 2012 (10:40 am)

Replying to: m6user (Oct 22, 2012 8:48 am)
I think that is mostly correct, but it would be interested to see where all the weight is if you pulled a couple of cars apart. Here's three I'd start with:
 
1995 Maxima SE 5-speed manual: 3,001 lbs with 3.0 6 cylinder engine. Length 187.7 inches; width 69.3 inches.
 
2013 BMW 328i 6-speed manual: 3,360 lbs with 2.0 4 cylinder engine. Length 182.5 inches; width 71.3 inches. AWD/Automatic: 3,595 lbs.
 
2013 Audi A4 FWD CVT: 3,509 lbs with 2.0 4 cylinder engine. Length 185.1 inches; width 72.2 inches. Quatro: 3,616 lbs.
 
Wheels and tires have gone from 15" 215 series on Maxima to 17" 225-245 series on Audi/BMW. In fairness, the Maxima has gone up to 3,551 lbs, and is now 190.6 inches long and 73.2 inches wide. That's A6/535i size, both of which are pushing 4,000 lbs. Also, in spite of the greater exterior width of the A4 and 328 compared to the older Maxima, the interior width (shoulder/hip) is almost identical. Much of the exterior width difference is in flared fenders and design elements.
 
I don't think we should go backwards in structural rigidity and crash worthiness. But I have to question how much that accounts for the significant weight increases since the mid 1990's. You can have very light safety cages that can withstand tremendous stresses, as Formula One proves.
 
Oh well, I'm up about 10% in body weight since buying my 1995 Maxima. I'll get that down to 5% before I complain on this subject again. Hopefully, before Thanksgiving.

Messages Page 1512 of 1626

To POST a message, please Sign In.

Advertisement

Browse by Category

Browse by Vehicle
   View All Vehicles

Browse by Board
Browse by Topic
View All Topics

Edmunds Community

Advertisement