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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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What is this discussion about? BMW 3 Series, Infiniti G37, Acura TL, Lexus IS 350, Mercedes-Benz C-Class, Cadillac CTS, Volvo S60, Audi A4, Acura TSX, Car Comparisons, Sedan

Messages Page 1505 of 1626

#15036 of 16251 Reliability and Durability etc. by markcincinnati

Oct 09, 2012 (11:14 am)

My wife and I have had so many German cars, I do feel I can offer up a data point or two, rather than "just" an anecdote.
 
Audis and BMW's (through 2009, at least) are breathtakingly expensive to have beyond their factory warranties. I say this even though I now would "risk" keeping one of these Germans beyond 50,000 miles.
 
I would, however, start to get downright nervous (and twitchy) once my German car got beyond 60,000 or perhaps 65,000 miles.
 
Not so with Acura's and Infiniti's.
 
I must inject here that we have had 29 Audis, 3 BMW's and 3 VW's since the late 1970's and only two "Japanese" representatives -- a 2012 Acura TL Advance SH-AWD and a 2011 Infiniti FX35 AWD.
 
Here is why I qualified my observations regarding the Acura and Infiniti: we've only had 2 of them and we have had both of them less than 2 years (each). For all I know, the Acura and Infiniti will blow up (expense wise) just like the Germans, post-50,000 miles. I doubt it and here's why.
 
Every German car we've had is, "at birth," the best driving auto ever -- and then at 5,000, 10,000 and sometimes even 15,000 miles they get even better (the engine finally reaches its maximum efficiency apparently.) Yet, somewhere between 15,000 and 25,000 miles, the German car really needs a "tune up" just to keep its (or my) spirits lifted. What I mean by this is that the German cars, thus far in my experience, have been the best driving and performing cars ever, time after time. Yet, these high-strung darling's age so quickly, so noticably and they just "loose that lovin' feelin'" unless they are maintained by sacrificing so very much coin of the realm. In the case of the Audis and BMW's -- thankfully -- bumper to bumper maintenance for 50,000 miles masked what that man behind the curtain was doing to keep pumping up the Audi and/or BMW to approximately full strength.
 
Put simply, the Germans show their age unless given lots of TLC ($).
 
Conversely, my wife's FX with about 35,000 miles on it is showing virtually no visual wear and is also "feeling new" -- there was no need for a mini overhaul post 25,000 miles as was required on every German car we've ever had (to maintain that new car feeling.) My Acura, too, at 25,000 miles seems to deny any perceptable effects of the miles on it. Only the front rotors on the Acura (which felt way warped at 8,000 miles) give anything about its age away -- and the rotors, after three turnings are eligible to be replaced under warranty (I've had them turned twice, to no avail.)
 
So, from my perch, looking down on the dozens of cars the missus and I have had since the '70's, I would say if you want great driving cars (temporarily great, that is) go German, and just realize they are the equivalent of being married to a super model -- they're high maintenance to keep up appearances.
 
The Japanese cars aren't quite the "lookers" that the Germans are, but they are reliable and durable in ways, thus far, that seems to have eluded Germany's finest.
 
Now, one final comment -- I would not hesitate to get another Audi. I do believe they are virtually if not literally as reliable as any of the competition. I also believe they are not even close to being as durable as these Premium Japanese cars are -- the Germans age so quickly and are oh so very expensive to "keep young." I don't know what secret sauce seems to prevent the Japanese cars from aging -- apparently, at least. Yet, it just seems like the old adage, you may have superior performance with high overall maintenance costs or reliability and durability with low overall maintenance costs, but not both.
 
Here's the thing -- all of these cars (ELLPS) are far more capable performers than most of us are driviers; and, all of these cars (ELLPS) are reliable at least to 50,000 miles. What we seem to be facing -- today, at least -- a choice of driving a great car that dies young or driving a very good car that outlasts your affection for it.
 
Maybe good really is the enemy of great.
 
"Whenever an individual or a business decides that success has been attained, progress stops." - Thomas J. Watson of IBM
 
My TL is a good car, no matter what you say!

#15037 of 16251 Re: Reliability and Durability etc. [markcincinnati] by habitat1

Oct 09, 2012 (11:43 am)

Replying to: markcincinnati (Oct 09, 2012 11:14 am)
I must inject here that we have had 29 Audis, 3 BMW's and 3 VW's since the late 1970's and only two "Japanese" representatives -- a 2012 Acura TL Advance SH-AWD and a 2011 Infiniti FX35 AWD.
 
I certainly appreciate and respect your experience, but just how many of these cars have made it past 50-60k miles for you to make your durability judgements?? It appears that you have owned a significant percentage of the Audis sold in the US. And if my math is correct, the 37 vehicles you have owned since the late 70's suggests an average hold period of 2+/- years assuming that you only had 2 in your garage concurrently.
 
That said, I don't dispute your conclusions. I definitely think the German cars have historically required a lot more "routine maintenance" to keep running up to snuff than the Japanese. I believe that is changing a bit. In both directions. My 2004 Acura TL has gone through 2 sets of brakes (including front rotors) in 65,000 miles (manual transmission = Brembo front brakes). My 1995 Maxima didn't have the front brake pads replaced until it hit 105k miles the rears at 125k miles and never needed rotors replaced when we gave it away at 15 years and 160k miles. By the same token, I believe the Germans have become a little less high maintenance over the past decade or so. My 911 did not call for it's first oil change until 2 years or 20,000 miles They don't offer a maintenance plan, so this wasn't some cheapskate way of reducing their costs. Granted, when something breaks out of warranty, you can hand them a limb or two along with your IRA, but compared to the old days, the cars spend more time in your garage than your mechanics.
 
P.S. Friend of mine back in the early 1980's owned an Audi Coupe. Sexy. I had a Datsun B210 GX at the time. Not sexy. I made him take me to dinner every time I had to drive him from suburban Phili to Wilmington to take his car in or pick it up for service. I put on 10 pounds in about 8 months before he ditched it.

#15038 of 16251 Re: So is the BMW 328i better then the ATS? [m6user] by flightnurse

Oct 09, 2012 (12:08 pm)

Replying to: m6user (Oct 08, 2012 4:04 pm)
Don't really know what you mean when you say that you "never talked numbers at all, just facts". Aren't numbers facts? Kind of cryptic. Lot of apparent opinions flying around here trying to be pawned off as facts though.
I never posted #'s or stated which one was better when I posted the URL,you have taken what was in the video and turned it around like I have made a statement that one was better then other. Now, I did say, that C/D stated that the BMW was the overall winner, in fact, that is why C/D has always picked the 3 series as the winner, because of the over all feel, way it drives. I think you need to re-watch the last part of the video to hear what they say.
 
Don't know what you mean by "on paper the G should be better".
 
If you read a posting I posted you would have gotten this. The G's chassis is what Nissan call's the FM platform, where the engine sits behind the front wheels, this like the RX-8 makes for a better handling car, chassis is plenty stiff, RWD, weight in line, manual trans, hefty V6, however, Nissan for what every reason missed the mark on some points. Hopefully the next generation G all the short coming of the current G will be worked out.

#15039 of 16251 Re: Reliability and Durability etc. [markcincinnati] by flightnurse

Oct 09, 2012 (12:24 pm)

Replying to: markcincinnati (Oct 09, 2012 11:14 am)
Put simply, the Germans show their age unless given lots of TLC ($). Mark with 29 cars how many of then did you drive to 50 or 60K? Currently my 2005 330i has no rattles, both doors close with the same solid thud as when it was new. The engine continues to pull to red line without missing a beat. Oil changed every 5K miles, air filter cleaned at 5K, the only out of pocket expense really has been the after market equipment I bought for the car. So really not too sure what you mean by extra TLC? You what to know about TLC, own a British car, my father and I bought a 1957 TR3, NOW that car needed TLC....

#15040 of 16251 Re: Reliability and Durability etc. [flightnurse] by plekto

Oct 09, 2012 (12:54 pm)

Replying to: flightnurse (Oct 09, 2012 12:24 pm)
Don't forget, though, that this also is a huge plus for Cadillac. Repairs are inexpensive (parts are actually less now than Toyota or Honda!) and they happen fairly infrequently compared to the European makes. Add in pretty decent incentives (incentives from Acura or Lexus??), and it's compelling.
 
$32K for a CTS (actual price via Truecar on a 2012, which isn't as low as you can negotiate yourself, even) versus $40-45K or more for a 3 series (335i)... It certainly makes you wonder. The smart money is on the CTS and to simply ignore the ATS until you can get one next fall in the 27-28K range after incentives.
 
As for my father's CTS, in two years it's had zero warranty repairs or issues with it. Nothing squeeks, rattles, or feels any different than the day he bought it. Quite a departure from his previous GM vehicles. You'd swear it was made by Totoya. But the engine is without a doubt made in Germany. It's exactly like having a BMW or Mercedes engine and a body that is made by Totoya - just without their appalling lack of styling.

#15041 of 16251 Re: Reliability and Durability etc. [markcincinnati] by andys120

Oct 09, 2012 (1:17 pm)

Replying to: markcincinnati (Oct 09, 2012 11:14 am)
Mark, your constant repetition of the erroneous idea that it is financially ruinous to own a German-made car is annoying but keep it up. As long as folks believe it there will be a constant supply of wonderful, lightly used BMWs and Audis for sale for 50% and less of the new price.
 
This winter, for the third time, I bought a second-hand German car. I got an 80K miles BMW 330ciC for the MSRP cost of a loaded Ford Fiesta. I know from experience that 80K is barely break-in mileage for a Bimmer and I also know that nothing drives as nicely as a good RWD car.
 
Drive on my friends.

#15042 of 16251 Re: So is the BMW 328i better then the ATS? [flightnurse] by sweendogy

Oct 09, 2012 (1:36 pm)

Replying to: flightnurse (Oct 09, 2012 12:08 pm)
One thing they didn't miss was price- so lets factor in that- how much of a mark did it really miss-
 
Boys price has to be factored in - hello- a 20% markup on a similar car is real money.

#15043 of 16251 Re: Reliability and Durability etc. [plekto] by habitat1

Oct 09, 2012 (1:46 pm)

Replying to: plekto (Oct 09, 2012 12:54 pm)
As for my father's CTS, in two years it's had zero warranty repairs or issues with it. Nothing squeeks, rattles, or feels any different than the day he bought it. Quite a departure from his previous GM vehicles.
 
Sorry, don't take this personally, but I have to chuckle a bit. First, markincincinnati offers his conclusion that German cars require a lot of TLC after owning 29 Audi's. And now you are ready to proclaim that your dad hit the jackpot with the CTS because it doesn't shake rattle and roll after two years - unlike his previous GM experience.
 
I'm beginning to think I stumbled upon a forum on self mutilation. Wouldn't most people have said "enough is enough" after maybe 15 Audi's? Or one too many rattle box GM's. But no, let's go back for more abuse and hope that it's different this time around?? I do have to give you guys an A for persistence.
 
But before you take the report card to McDonalds for a free Happy Meal, you might want to retest the doors of the CTS in another year or two. I know people - similar to Flight's experience - that have 6-8-10 year old BMW's and Mercedes with 100k+ miles that still have the new car look, sound and feel. I'm sorry to appear anti-GM, but I honestly can't say that I know anyone that speaks enthusiastically of how solid their 8 year old ___________ GM still feels.

#15044 of 16251 2012 G37X - Center console buttons by mjizzles

Oct 09, 2012 (1:48 pm)

Has anyone had a problem with the center console buttons? When I drive at night, the volume and thermostat buttons do not light up and everything is pitch black? Is there a setting or way to illuminate them?

#15045 of 16251 Re: Manual Transmissions RIP [markcincinnati] by graphicguy

Oct 09, 2012 (1:59 pm)

Replying to: markcincinnati (Oct 09, 2012 8:48 am)
The 7-speed DSG's are also wonderful and in most cases (if you believe the test reports) are able to equal and often better 6-speed manuals.
 
Mark....I totally agree with your assessment. There was a time that anyone who wouldn't/couldn't drive a manual transmission, in my mind, should not be allowed on public roads, as they didn't really know how to drive.
 
Now, as you state, as good as auto trans cars have become so good (particularly the 7 sp dual clutch DSG in Audis), that there's little hope that even someone who's really good with a manual trans could possibly out perform it.
 
Because MPG is becoming more an more paramount, auto transmissions will capture that crown, too.
 
Generally speaking, today's auto transmissions are simply better than their manual counterparts. I'm good with a manual trans car....I've tracked them both at zutox and 1/4 mile events. So, it takes quite a bit for me to admit those new auto transmissions are better. But, they are.

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